Do you support marriage rights for homosexuals?

[LuisDantas]

Some people seem to think so. Which goes to show how little people know of other people. Or, perhaps, how deeply in thrall of pointless fear they may be.

Real sad.

 

[darkendless]

Some people seem to think so. Which goes to show how little people know of other people. Or, perhaps, how deeply in thrall of pointless fear they may be.

Real sad.

Agreed. The lengths people go to protect their image of God concerns me.

 

[Gharib]

Wait... so you really would want to have Islam be the only legal religion?

Do you understand that making something legal doesn't imply that you're endorsing it? Allowing other points of view is not the same thing as agreeing with them.

islam allows others to have their say, but muslims view islam as the only correct religion of god, wich started with Adam and finished with Muhamed as prophets and in between them another 123998 were sent. if one particular religion has teachings that do not contradcit islam, some scholars say it could be the message of one of the previous prophets, we believe that all nations (people) were sent a prophet. but islamic law is that we must accept all other prophets and their messages but we must live according to the laws of god that were sent to the last and universal prophet.

I'm Canadian, actually. Not American. And I'm not planning to hate or kill anyone.

This is entirely relevant to the thread, because it speaks to the inconsistency of your position: if your dislike for same-sex marriage is enough reason for it to be banned for everyone, then is someone else's dislike for Islam enough reason to have Islam banned?

What I'm trying to get at is this: "I don't like it" isn't enough reason to make something illegal. "I think it's condemned by God" isn't even enough reason to make it illegal, because plenty of other people think the exact same about what you do.

well if my reasoning isn't enough to ban same sex marriage, then why is non-muslim reasoning enough to ban islam? around the world, muslims aren't allowed to erect minarets, they aren't allowed to dress in the way that they want, etc etc. why is it that my reasoning is not sufficent but that of those who are against islam is? that there is the inconsistency, it would be unfair to muslims to not ban same sex marriage when non-muslims are able to ban muslims from practising islam.

 

[Gharib]

I thought the Quran said that Judaism and Christianity are partially correct. Am I mistaken about that?

you are mistaken, islam teaches that Moses and Jesus peace be upon them were prophets of god and that the scriptures that they received were from god, and as muslims we must accept them 2 as prophets and their books as real. however we do not believe that judaism and christianity contain truth since they contradcit the quran. however we can say that the jewish view that Moses is the prophet of god is correct, but it is not the same as saying that judaism leads to paradise, meaning it is not correct.

Far as I can tell, there are no true ex-homosexuals.

There might be homosexuals that repress themselves, or bisexuals who eventually settle for heterosexual commited relationships. But I very much doubt there are "cured" homosexuals anywhere, except perhaps as a very rare, freaky occurrence.

so when it comes to explaning homosexuality, all we need is the word of a homosexual that it is natural, and when it comes to ex-homosexuals saying that have are no longer homosexual, those who are pro homo and homos themself do not find it conveniet and therefore ex-homos are accused of repressing their feelings. this isn't right.

I'm sorry that you view homosexuality as a sin. That is a very sad feeling, one which weights heavily upon people that really have neither choice nor bad intents on the matter, and are causing no one harm by simply being what they are.

being homosexual means harming yourself, in islam there are sins with which one harms others, and sins with which one harms ones' self. if i harm someone and i am caught i would get punished unless the victim forgives me, if i am forgiven and am not asked to repay the victim, i will have to be held accountable for that harm that i caused on the day of judgement, however, if i am punished then i escape being held accountable on the day of judgement.

with sinning against ones self this is in 2 parts, sinning that is physically punishable and sinning that isn't physically punishable. with that which is punishable if one is caught, he must be punished. if one is not caught and repents then there is no punishment for that sin in the hearafter either if Allah forgives them.
now homosexuality is a sin against ones self that is physically punishable if one is caught/testifies to it. i hope that explains the matter a bit better.

Even so, married people tend to be happier and less of a burden to other people. Forbidding marriage to homosexuals is not beneficial to anyone else, and very much helpful in making their participation in society healthier and more constructive overall.

since you cannot see things through my eyes, i have to give you an example of the same meaning:

in a society where robbery is common, would you be helping the situation if the president said let the robbers rob you and then come claim from the governemnt that which you were robbed? does that example make any sense?

 

[Vendetta]

Well isn't that the paradox? If God indeed is the author of life, from the macro to the micro, how does Islam view homosexuality? A choice? If substantial proof is shown that homosexuality is at least on par with heterosexuality as in lack of choice, then what is the excuse then?

 

[Vendetta]

I most certainly do not rely on the Islamic approach to ruining when it comes to critical thought on homosexuality. It seems its more of a denial approach than actually evaluating the facts. If in fact Islam.is the absolute truth Muslims who are knowledgeable of biology and sociology ought to evaluate the facts. Simply saying "Islam is true because Allah said so" seems more of a stone cold steve austin phrase than a factual statement.

 

[Badran]

Do you understand that making something legal doesn't imply that you're endorsing it? Allowing other points of view is not the same thing as agreeing with them.

This is basically the core of the whole issue. This is a basic principle of differentiating between allowance and endorsement. Which is recognized in my religion. I also don't consider the principle of differentiating between our own codes of behavior and between legal and illegal to be a concept that is only linked or introduced through secularism, as this is basic fairness. Its basically not being delusional as to think that me not liking something (in which ever terms be it my religion says so, or its just my opinion) is enough to warrant legal intervention.

Another reason that makes me not preferring to link it to secularism is that secularism comes in people's minds apparently with different ideas.

 

[Badran]

Some people seem to think so. Which goes to show how little people know of other people. Or, perhaps, how deeply in thrall of pointless fear they may be.

Real sad.

I think in some cases it is due to the mistaken assumption that natural must mean good.

 

[Draka]

Let's try this argument on for size. If Allah/God is responsible for the creation of everyone and everything and we are born the way we are suppose to be then Allah/God creates homosexuals. Yes, homosexuality is an inborn trait just as much as heterosexuality.

Our emotions, our attractions, these are things based in the brain...not in our pants. Our brains form in-utero. Just like right and left handedness are determined by differing brain formation rates, so too does it make sense that the same mechanism would work for sexuality. As a matter of fact, brain scans comparing Hetero-men to Homo-women and Homo-men to Hetero-women prove the likenesses between the brains and their processing of attraction and sexuality. This is not a "choice" but an uncontrollable natural reaction in our brains.

If we are all born the way Allah/God wants us to be then, obviously, Allah/God wants people to be gay. Who are you to treat them badly if they are just as much "children of Allah/God" as you are?

 

[Foxfire]

So... for example, when a person is incapacitated in the hospital, and the hospital staff decide to bar the patient's partner because they're not "married", or when the patient eventually dies and custody of his children is given to a homophobic relative instead of the only other parent they've ever known, you'll turn your back?

Wait a minute. I never once said I would turn my back on anyone or anything. I said "I would be doing something else". And the scenario you describe can happen to heterosexuals as well. It isn't fair and I agree with you. These things should evolve. As long as we can continue on our path knowing nothing stays the same yet it does, we will find ways to overcome our challenges. Hey, I'm the first one in there getting dirty if I perceive the little guy is getting beat up by the big guy.

 

[Foxfire]

Again... so much for compassion.


Most of the rights of marriage become really important - vital, even - during the most difficult parts of our lives. You may not need the piece of paper to make a home together, but you often do need it to safeguard the well-being of your family when crises hit. Because of this, in my mind, banning same-sex marriage mainly amounts to kicking people when they're down.

But you've made it clear that you don't care. That's your prerogative, I guess, but it's definitely not a position I agree with.

Well, I'm sorry you equate my belief that everything will work out but it will take time for same sex couples to inherit the same rights as heterosexual couples as not caring. I don't think I said anywhere that I don't care.

I beleive they are halfway there. I hope they get what they want. I'm not stopping them. I'll help them if I believe they make a good case for individual cases of wrong doing. Having compassion is possible even when you don't go protest at every protest and even when others think you don't display enough of it.

 

[LuisDantas]

well if my reasoning isn't enough to ban same sex marriage, then why is non-muslim reasoning enough to ban islam? around the world, muslims aren't allowed to erect minarets, they aren't allowed to dress in the way that they want, etc etc. why is it that my reasoning is not sufficent but that of those who are against islam is? that there is the inconsistency, it would be unfair to muslims to not ban same sex marriage when non-muslims are able to ban muslims from practising islam.

Actually, if there is an inconsistency, it would work in the other direction. Muslims have political goals that affect non-Muslims, so it is legitimate to oppose it on political grounds - particularly when it presents itself as the one true path which must be accepted to the exclusion of anything else.

By contrast, homosexuality is very much a private matter, as is marriage.

 

[LuisDantas]

you are mistaken, islam teaches that Moses and Jesus peace be upon them were prophets of god and that the scriptures that they received were from god, and as muslims we must accept them 2 as prophets and their books as real. however we do not believe that judaism and christianity contain truth since they contradcit the quran. however we can say that the jewish view that Moses is the prophet of god is correct, but it is not the same as saying that judaism leads to paradise, meaning it is not correct.

If that were true, then it would follow that Islam must be either accepted by all or kept under strong surveillance, if not forbidden outright. I'm sure there is a serious mistake somewhere in there.

so when it comes to explaning homosexuality, all we need is the word of a homosexual that it is natural, and when it comes to ex-homosexuals saying that have are no longer homosexual, those who are pro homo and homos themself do not find it conveniet and therefore ex-homos are accused of repressing their feelings. this isn't right.

Indeed, that isn't right. All it takes to accept homosexuality as natural and certainly not anything resembling "evil" or "devil's work" is being willing to accept the reality of facts. No "word" is needed. Only being courageous enough to listen to fact more than to destructive fear. It is real people we are talking about, Eselam. Not demon-possessed thralls. Not inhuman djinns. Simply people who happen to be attracted to a specific kind of other people.

In all honesty, if you believe that homosexuality is "curable" then you are simply not attempting to understand or notice what it is at all hard.

being homosexual means harming yourself, in islam there are sins with which one harms others, and sins with which one harms ones' self. if i harm someone and i am caught i would get punished unless the victim forgives me, if i am forgiven and am not asked to repay the victim, i will have to be held accountable for that harm that i caused on the day of judgement, however, if i am punished then i escape being held accountable on the day of judgement.

Let's all hope that you are simply wrong about this, and not representative of Islamic thought. Because this I will not accept, never, under any circunstances. It goes completely against facts I know about. It is wrong. It is discriminatory and destructive. It harms good people that never deserved to be hurt that way.

If Islam truly demands such a perspective, then it must be rejected with great determination.

with sinning against ones self this is in 2 parts, sinning that is physically punishable and sinning that isn't physically punishable. with that which is punishable if one is caught, he must be punished. if one is not caught and repents then there is no punishment for that sin in the hearafter either if Allah forgives them.
now homosexuality is a sin against ones self that is physically punishable if one is caught/testifies to it. i hope that explains the matter a bit better.

I'm actually hoping I failed utterly to understand you.

since you cannot see things through my eyes, i have to give you an example of the same meaning:

in a society where robbery is common, would you be helping the situation if the president said let the robbers rob you and then come claim from the governemnt that which you were robbed? does that example make any sense?

Not really. Frankly, it is a bit naive. It fails to consider the social realities of what government and theft are.

It is also sad that you even see any sense in comparing robbery, which is very much a harm to others, to homosexuality, which definitely isn't.

 

[McBell]

my bad, there could be muslims who are not well educated in islamic teachings regarding the matter and might believe in the ape to man theory, i should have said islam rather than muslims. thanks for pointing that out.

So instead of speaking for all Muslims, you claim to speak for all of Islam?

Interesting how your ego does not allow for you to be mistaken on anything Islam.
Perhaps you are the new Prophet?

 

[McBell]

since you cannot see things through my eyes, i have to give you an example of the same meaning:

in a society where robbery is common, would you be helping the situation if the president said let the robbers rob you and then come claim from the governemnt that which you were robbed?

Perhaps if you think upon this for a few minutes you will be able to see for yourself how this analogy fails?

does that example make any sense?

Nope.
You are comparing apples to orangutans.

 

[Penumbra]

Do you support marriage rights for homosexuals? I do!

Of course.

 

[Gharib]

Actually, if there is an inconsistency, it would work in the other direction. Muslims have political goals that affect non-Muslims, so it is legitimate to oppose it on political grounds - particularly when it presents itself as the one true path which must be accepted to the exclusion of anything else.

By contrast, homosexuality is very much a private matter, as is marriage.

firstly what are you reffering to by islamic laws that affect non-muslims?

secondly, marriage is a private matter, i agree, but in marriage there too are boundaries, because if i were to rape my wife, we all know what would happen. so what happened to privacy?

 

[Gharib]

So instead of speaking for all Muslims, you claim to speak for all of Islam?

Interesting how your ego does not allow for you to be mistaken on anything Islam.
Perhaps you are the new Prophet?

Islam speaks for itself:

It is He who created you from clay and then decreed a term and a specified time [known] to Him; then [still] you are in dispute. [6:2]

And We did certainly create man out of clay from an altered black mud. [15:26]

 

[Gaura Priya]

Gay Muslims!!



So... I'm looking for a husband...

 

[Secunchants]

Are you intolerant of people that are intolerant?