Do you support marriage rights for homosexuals?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

i'll ask you a question, if your child has a baby and rather than teach that baby that heterosexuality is right, you teach it that homosexuality is right, do you believe that that child will grow up homosexual?

Why why would those be the only two options?

Why not teach the child that both homosexuality or heterosexuality are acceptable? What do you think would happen then?

Also, there's a distinction that Badran touched on: the distinction between our personal codes of behaviour, which we only impose on ourselves, and secular law, which is imposed on everyone.

You disagree with same-sex marriage; I disagree with Islam. Now... I think that Muslims - just like everyone else - should be free to express their beliefs and follow the dictates of their conscience, even if they do it in ways that I wouldn't. However, it seems to me that on the issue of same-sex marriage, you've taken a different approach: you object to it personally, so you want it prohibited for all.

Should I take the same attitude toward Islam that you've taken toward same-sex marriage?

 

[Gharib]

Eselam, why would you assume that to happen? I've never heard of parents teaching their children that homosexuality is right or normal (as opposed to heterosexuality) and yet there are a lot of homosexuals in the world.

well if you viewed homosexuality as a sin you wouldn't teach a child that it is ok, and vice versa. but i'm just saying that it is a common thing for a child to be of heterosexual behaviour even those that latter end up homosexual. so if for example it was the other way around, would a child who in, lets say, a normal situation were to grow up heterosexual end up growing homosexual if you were to teach him/her that heterosexuality is wrong? i'm just asking a question, i don't know if this stuff happens, it never did with me or anyone i know, i'm just asking.

 

[Vendetta]

Esalem along with the rest in the thread,

Esalem views homosexuality as a sin. Enough said further show of proof that homosexuality has been around far back older than the Bible and Quran combined shows us proof that these individuals wont change. We all know heterosexuality and homosexuality is a natural product of social and sexual behavior. The fact that we respond to someone who views this as a sin is nothing short of a wasted effort.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

ok thanks for the explanation, so how would a bridal party work in a gay marriage? by gay i mean a male couple? and vice versa for a groom party (if that exists) in a lesbian marriage?

Well, by definition, there wouldn't be a "groom's party" in a lesbian wedding or a "bridal party" in a gay wedding. The terms "groom" and "bride" are based on the gender of the person getting married.

But there are no hard-and-fast rules. A couple (same-sex or opposite-sex) can choose to deviate from the "traditional" model of a groom's party made up of men and a bridal party made up of women. Some couples choose not to have attendants at all. When one of my friends got married, his groom's party was made up of both men and women, as was the bridal party; the "maid of honour" was a man.

In the end, it's all up to the couple how they want to do things... whether the couple is same-sex or opposite-sex.

 

[tumbleweed41]

i'll ask you a question, if your child has a baby and rather than teach that baby that heterosexuality is right, you teach it that homosexuality is right, do you believe that that child will grow up homosexual?

I have two adult children that I raised to believe there is absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality.
Both are heterosexual.
Go figure....

 

[Gharib]

I hope you don't mind if I jump in.

not at all.

I'm going to say, "No." Keeping in mind that my reason for believing this is based on personal experience:

My brother was raised with 3 other siblings in a home by two WWII generation parents. The word "gay" wasn't even whispered. It wasn't bashed ~ it just simply wasn't an idea that was entertained. Heterosexuality was naturally assumed and expected.

When he realized he didn't like women, he figured it was God's way of telling him he was destined to be a Catholic priest. It took him a while, but after must study and reflection, he eventually figured out he was gay.

The rest of us are straight. We were raised in the same environment and by the same set of parents. Why is he different?

well i can't answer from a scientific perspective because i'm no scientist and haven't read much about homosexuality from a scientific perspective.

from an islamic perspective, i could give you some information on it from my own islamic perspective. but you since you aren't a muslim you don't take the Quran and the Hadith as truth, like i do. so no point in that. i was just after a simple answer to my question.

 

[Gharib]

Well, by definition, there wouldn't be a "groom's party" in a lesbian wedding or a "bridal party" in a gay wedding. The terms "groom" and "bride" are based on the gender of the person getting married.

But there are no hard-and-fast rules. A couple (same-sex or opposite-sex) can choose to deviate from the "traditional" model of a groom's party made up of men and a bridal party made up of women. Some couples choose not to have attendants at all. When one of my friends got married, his groom's party was made up of both men and women, as was the bridal party; the "maid of honour" was a man.

In the end, it's all up to the couple how they want to do things... whether the couple is same-sex or opposite-sex.

ok thanks once again.

 

[LuisDantas]

so if for example it was the other way around, would a child who in, lets say, a normal situation were to grow up heterosexual end up growing homosexual if you were to teach him/her that heterosexuality is wrong? i'm just asking a question, i don't know if this stuff happens, it never did with me or anyone i know, i'm just asking.

I very much doubt it. He might perhaps grow up feeling guilty about his heterosexual feelings, but he wouldn't become homosexual just because he was told that he should.

People can't be ordered to be either heterosexual or homosexual any more than they can be pressured into liking fat people over thin, blonde over brunettes.

 

[Gharib]

Esalem along with the rest in the thread,

Esalem views homosexuality as a sin. Enough said further show of proof that homosexuality has been around far back older than the Bible and Quran combined shows us proof that these individuals wont change. We all know heterosexuality and homosexuality is a natural product of social and sexual behavior. The fact that we respond to someone who views this as a sin is nothing short of a wasted effort.

absolutely right, i won't change my views, but i just like to know how those that said yes view homosexuality. i do ussualy go overboard with thread on homosexuality, unfortunately i've realised that it was wrong of me, so now i'm just asking questions to understand other peoples perspectives.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

well if you viewed homosexuality as a sin you wouldn't teach a child that it is ok, and vice versa.

If you viewed apostasy from Islam as a sin, you wouldn't teach a child that this was okay.

Are you also looking to make all religions but Islam illegal?

but i'm just saying that it is a common thing for a child to be of heterosexual behaviour even those that latter end up homosexual. so if for example it was the other way around, would a child who in, lets say, a normal situation were to grow up heterosexual end up growing homosexual if you were to teach him/her that heterosexuality is wrong? i'm just asking a question, i don't know if this stuff happens, it never did with me or anyone i know, i'm just asking.

No matter how a child is brought up, most children end up being heterosexual.

Teaching a child that homosexuality is wrong doesn't stop the child from being homosexual. All it can do is teach the child to be ashamed of who he or she is if he or she turns out to be gay. Sometimes this will stop same-sex behaviour. OTOH, sometimes, it drives the child into depression... and potentially suicide.

However, this is all beside the point. When it comes to same-sex marriage, we're not talking about whether homosexuality itself is acceptable; in any country where same-sex marriage is being debated, homosexuality is perfectly legal. The question in the same-sex marriage debate isn't whether you want married gay people or no gay people at all; it's whether you want the gay people - who will be there regardless - to be married or unmarried.

 

[Gharib]

Why why would those be the only two options?

Why not teach the child that both homosexuality or heterosexuality are acceptable? What do you think would happen then?

Also, there's a distinction that Badran touched on: the distinction between our personal codes of behaviour, which we only impose on ourselves, and secular law, which is imposed on everyone.

You disagree with same-sex marriage; I disagree with Islam. Now... I think that Muslims - just like everyone else - should be free to express their beliefs and follow the dictates of their conscience, even if they do it in ways that I wouldn't. However, it seems to me that on the issue of same-sex marriage, you've taken a different approach: you object to it personally, so you want it prohibited for all.

Should I take the same attitude toward Islam that you've taken toward same-sex marriage?

you won't be the first person to hate islam and muslims, maybe you haven't read on islamic history, muslims were openly killed for saying they were muslims. if you decide to hate us and want to kill us then by all means go ahead if you have such power, your government is already doing that (you are american right). since this is another issue, maybe we should not continue with this as it has nothing to do with the thread.

 

[Madhuri]

well if you viewed homosexuality as a sin you wouldn't teach a child that it is ok, and vice versa. but i'm just saying that it is a common thing for a child to be of heterosexual behaviour even those that latter end up homosexual. so if for example it was the other way around, would a child who in, lets say, a normal situation were to grow up heterosexual end up growing homosexual if you were to teach him/her that heterosexuality is wrong? i'm just asking a question, i don't know if this stuff happens, it never did with me or anyone i know, i'm just asking.

Sexual feelings are a part of who we are. You can bring up your kids without ever mentioning sex or attraction but once they hit puberty, they will naturally start to feel attractions.

There are exceptions though.

There are asexuals, people who have no sexual feelings, and this can cause them great confusion and distress, especially because it is very uncommon.

There are people who are homosexual. These are people who since they first begin to have feelings of sexuality, find themselves attracted to the same sex. Most people throughout history have been brought up in an environment where homosexuality is viewed by society as abhorrent and unnatural. So these people grow up feeling a lot of guilt and shame and end up living a lie.

Eselam, homosexuality is not a choice. It is a feeling, a desire as potent as the feelings and desires that you may feel for a woman. Most homosexual people I have known will tell you that they have always felt that way, and many have struggled with feelings of shame because their parents taught them that it was wrong.

If homosexuality were a choice, then it means that everyone has some desires for the same sex but simply choose one way or the other. But I can say that this is not true, because I do not have even a slight attraction to females. I am very accepting of homosexuals, I have always been a liberal person. And yet I have no sexual desire for women. So homosexuality can never be a choice for me because it would be a situation I could not find pleasure or happiness in.

Does that make sense?

I will also tell you the other common sexuality: bisexuality. As you probably know, bisexuals have sexual feelings for both men and women. There are some bisexuals who will display heterosexual traits and later become permanently involved with someone of the same sex.
It would not surprise me if religious people confuse homosexuals with bisexuals.
The difference is that a homosexual will have absolutely no attraction for someone of the opposite sex. If you feel absolutely no attraction for other men, Eselam, this is the same lack of feeling that a homosexual will experience toward someone of the opposite sex.

Heterosexuality is not a choice if a person cannot become sexually motivated for someone of the opposite sex.

 

[Vendetta]

you won't be the first person to hate islam and muslims, maybe you haven't read on islamic history, muslims were openly killed for saying they were muslims. if you decide to hate us and want to kill us then by all means go ahead if you have such power, your government is already doing that (you are american right). since this is another issue, maybe we should not continue with this as it has nothing to do with the thread.

How do you know he or she is American? That is very presumptuous of you

 

[Gharib]

If you viewed apostasy from Islam as a sin, you wouldn't teach a child that this was okay.

exactly

Are you also looking to make all religions but Islam illegal?

well being a muslim means to accept islam as the only right religion. what would it mean about the truthfulness of islam if it taught that other religions could be correct or that they are partially correct? it would flat out mean that islam is not the true religion.

No matter how a child is brought up, most children end up being heterosexual.

caould be.

Teaching a child that homosexuality is wrong doesn't stop the child from being homosexual. All it can do is teach the child to be ashamed of who he or she is if he or she turns out to be gay. Sometimes this will stop same-sex behaviour. OTOH, sometimes, it drives the child into depression... and potentially suicide.

However, this is all beside the point. When it comes to same-sex marriage, we're not talking about whether homosexuality itself is acceptable; in any country where same-sex marriage is being debated, homosexuality is perfectly legal. The question in the same-sex marriage debate isn't whether you want married gay people or no gay people at all; it's whether you want the gay people - who will be there regardless - to be married or unmarried.

so where do ex-homosexuals stand?
and regarding the last bit of your post, if they are going to be there regardless then still my answer is no. islam says prohibit what is sinful and encourage what is beneficial, since homosexuality itself is considered a sin then how can i say yes to such a marriage, i would be contradicting the Quran.

 

[Gharib]

How do you know he or she is American? That is very presumptuous of you

from past conversations, maybe hes mentioned that he was american in our past conversations, i do know he is an engineer, but not 100% sure if he is american. if he isn't then you are. case closed.

 

[LuisDantas]

from an islamic perspective, i could give you some information on it from my own islamic perspective. but you since you aren't a muslim you don't take the Quran and the Hadith as truth, like i do. so no point in that. i was just after a simple answer to my question.

Actually, there is a very good, very constructive point to hearing your islamic perspective on such matters, Eselam. Personally speaking, I have come to admire the obvious, sincere dedication of Muslims to the Islamic ideal of family and personal responsibility.

That is something worth communicating around and using as a basis for reaching better understanding and acceptance among people. It is in the best interests of everyone to be aware of whatever common ground we may have.

Or so I would like to believe, anyway.

If nothing else, making people aware of the virtues of Islamic ideas about sexuality and family will be helpful in dissolving some of the fear of Islam, and perhaps even in attracting some new converts to your religion.

 

[Vendetta]

from past conversations, maybe hes mentioned that he was american in our past conversations, i do know he is an engineer, but not 100% sure if he is american. if he isn't then you are. case closed.

Lol ok you know, it can be frustrating sometimes talking to someone who is so closed minded. Although I don't know you, or what you have said in the past that you thoght was out of line but regardless of that fact I know that despite any efforts to show you proof on homosexuality all it is, is a nod then you keep moving.

Let me let you in on a secret. Homosexuality is not a changeable trait and so called "ex homosexuals" which Christian organizations love to show off, if it is true, perhaps have repressed their sexual feelings so much it is possible to convince oneself they are cured of their so called gayness.

But the great disappointment for you I guess is that sexual orientation is an incurable thing. I cannot convince myself to lay with another man. I adore the female anatomy (especially the vagina) too much. However I believe gay men feel the same way. But I think what you fail to understand is that everyone is made differently. There are bi-curious, bisexual gender-identity confusion (or known as a disorder) along with asexuals transsexuals etc.

So now switching to a religious perspective how can God, or Allah create a union for males and females yet had created gays, gender identity confusion ad asexuals?

 

[Gharib]

Actually, there is a very good, very constructive point to hearing your islamic perspective on such matters, Eselam. Personally speaking, I have come to admire the obvious, sincere dedication of Muslims to the Islamic ideal of family and personal responsibility.

That is something worth communicating around and using as a basis for reaching better understanding and acceptance among people. It is in the best interests of everyone to be aware of whatever common ground we may have.

Or so I would like to believe, anyway.

If nothing else, making people aware of the virtues of Islamic ideas about sexuality and family will be helpful in dissolving some of the fear of Islam, and perhaps even in attracting some new converts to your religion.

sorry but i don't see that as a good idea. you see i have my own perspective on it based on islamic teachings, if i had an islamic perspective based on islamic teachings then i would present that.

lets just say this, in islam all evil (which is sin) stems from the devil so from an islamic perspective homosexuality stems from the interference of the devil, just as theft and lying stems from him too. thats all i will say.

 

[England my lionheart]

the link you provided contains no evidence in support of what you claimed, to which i made a question to you.

There is plenty of evidence out there

i do not dissagree with you about homosexuality in the egyptians and romans etc, i think Prophet Lot alayhi salam lived before the egyptians and romans and greeks etc.

I've read somewhere that Lot was 1900 BCE

i'll ask you a question, if your child has a baby and rather than teach that baby that heterosexuality is right, you teach it that homosexuality is right, do you believe that that child will grow up homosexual?

Not at all,i don't see sexuality as a choice so neither are wrong,and i don't see why it should affect two consenting adults getting married.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

well being a muslim means to accept islam as the only right religion. what would it mean about the truthfulness of islam if it taught that other religions could be correct or that they are partially correct? it would flat out mean that islam is not the true religion.

Wait... so you really would want to have Islam be the only legal religion?

Do you understand that making something legal doesn't imply that you're endorsing it? Allowing other points of view is not the same thing as agreeing with them.

I'm Canadian, actually. Not American. And I'm not planning to hate or kill anyone.

This is entirely relevant to the thread, because it speaks to the inconsistency of your position: if your dislike for same-sex marriage is enough reason for it to be banned for everyone, then is someone else's dislike for Islam enough reason to have Islam banned?

What I'm trying to get at is this: "I don't like it" isn't enough reason to make something illegal. "I think it's condemned by God" isn't even enough reason to make it illegal, because plenty of other people think the exact same about what you do.