Do you trust God?

[CG Didymus]

There are more reasons to believe that the Baha'i Faith is a true religion from God, aside from what Baha'ullah did and wrote.

Oh, this is new! So far you have been telling us that his message is the evidence.
So, what are these other reasons?

Yes, Baha'is claim he fulfilled all the prophecies of every religion. But then she says that prophecies aren't that good of proof, because they are so easily manipulated. And yes, they are. And Baha'is do to them whatever is needed to make a prophecy about the Baha'i Faith. For me, instead of proving anything or being any kind of "evidence", it has the opposite effect. It gives me reasons to doubt that Baha'u'llah is really who he claims to be.

I do think they have a lot of fine teachings, but they have made too many claims that they can't back up. And then there's is always the problem that all religions have... practicing what they preach. Unity? The oneness of all people and all religions?

 

[Trailblazer]

That is very unfair. They talked about peace, love and brotherhood, and you reject them so cruelly. What else even Bahaollah talked about? Then what is the reason to consider them as manifestations of God. You reject Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, Zoroaster, Krishna and Buddha. Why then, you have a nine-pointed star as a symbol. Is there anything that Bahais can explain sensibly?

No, I do not reject any of the former Manifestations of God, and Baha'u'llah warned us against ever doing that.

“Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60

All I ever said is that I believe that all the previous religious dispensations have been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. Do you understand what a dispensation is?

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

I believe that the system that God has put in place for the present age is the Revelation of Baha'u'llah and as such we are living in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah.

I believe that the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is through the latest Messenger of God and that Messenger is Baha'u'llah. Baha’u’llah is the Messenger of God for the present dispensation and God wants us to recognize and follow Him.

 

[Trailblazer]

You quote the Bible constantly, but you never came across this stuff...

I rarely ever quote the Old Testament.... ever noticed that?

So, you ask, where has God inflicted pain and suffering? And I say, "In the Bible". Your response... Why should I believe those fictious stories?

You already know my answer but for some reason you don't accept my answer.

I give you evidence, but you don't accept that evidence. Lots of us don't believe those stories. But, when a Baha'i doesn't, it kind of looks like Baha'is really don't believe in the other religions and their Scriptures.

So it is okay if you and other people don't believe the Bible stories are true, but it is not okay when a Baha'i does not believe they are true?

I don't care what it "looks like." You know that Baha'i position because I have posted it many times, but for the benefit of anyone else reading this I am going to post it again.
Here are some Baha'i views of the Bible:

Introduction

Although Bahá'ís universally share a great respect for the Bible, and acknowledge its status as sacred literature, their individual views about its authoritative status range along the full spectrum of possibilities. At one end there are those who assume the uncritical evangelical or fundamentalist-Christian view that the Bible is wholly and indisputably the word of God. At the other end are Bahá'ís attracted to the liberal, scholarly conclusion that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces. Between these extremes is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts. I hope to show that a Bahá'í view must lie in this middle area, and can be defined to some degree.

Conclusion

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Baháí View of the Bible

And how many times have I said that the Bible could very well be myth and legends. And when I do Baha'is come back and call it "God's word"? And you are just as bad when you quote it as if what it says is true.

I never claimed that the Bible is God's Word. At best it is God's testimony through the Holy Spirit, but much of the Bible is fictional stories that were used to convey spiritual truths. That is my position FWIW. Did some of that stuff actually happen? Hell if I know and hell if I care since it does not matter now since this is a new age and we have a new religion for this age.

 

[Trailblazer]

And an easy way out of learning anything about the other religions is to say they have been "abrogated".

Baha'is do not need "a way out." We are in no way obligated to know about the past religions, not anymore than those who adhere to those religions are obligated to know about the Baha'i Faith.

"Oh, but Baha'is believe in progressive revelation" will be your response, but that does not cut the mustard because that does not mean we need to know about all the religions that ever existed. Saying that is just a way to try to manipulate us into answering the questions YOU have about the older religions. Nobody else asks us these questions, ever noticed that?

Baha'is have enough to read in our own Writings, so much that I have not even read everything. We don't have time to study older religions that do not apply to the present age. If Baha'is are interested in studying them that is their choice, but it is not a requirement.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then is Riggs just giving his personal opinion?

His personal opinion based upon extensive research.

Do you really investigate truth for yourself? Read Revelation and tell me what your personal opinion is. Riggs throws in the zodiac? Where does he get that from?

I don't have time to read Revelation and my personal opinion would not be worth anything. Of what I have read I can understand hardly anything.

Yes, I did investigate the truth for myself, in order to determine if the Baha'i Faith was the truth, not the to determine if Christianity was true. That was not necessary. I never read one page of the Bible for the first 42 years I was a Baha'i. I believe what the Baha'i Writings say about the Bible and that is all I need to know in order to be a Baha'i.

Who is the "Lamb"? I think, for the Baha'is to be right, it has to be Baha'u'llah. Take a look... see if you can make a connection.

I believe the Lamb is the Bab. It is not Baha'u'llah, as Riggs said. It does not have to be Baha'u'llah for the Baha'is to be right. The Bab can be considered the return of the Christ Spirit since He ushered in the new age.

There is not any authoritative answer for two of the major religions of the world?

No, not that I know of.

 

[Trailblazer]

And Baha'is do to them whatever is needed to make a prophecy about the Baha'i Faith.

No, we do not do that because we don't have to since the prophecies are all about Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

It is the Christians who try to make the prophecies about Jesus when they can never be about Jesus, who never promised to return but rather said that His work was finished on earth and He was NO LONGER in the world. Not once in the entire New Testament did Jesus ever say He was coming back to earth.

 

[Trailblazer]

You say his writings will "never be altered by man", and yet in your claims of magical prophecy, you alter the actual words he wrote into something quite different

Please show me where I ever did that or retract your claim.

 

[Trailblazer]

So when god causes an earthquake that collapses a school and kills 100 children, it's not his fault, it's ours.
So when god gives children cancer it's not his fault, it's ours.
So when it doesn't rain for two years and the crops fail and children starve it's not god's fault, it's ours.

This means either...
1. There are natural events that happen in the world that god has no control over, or
2. God is a like a spoiled child who tries to blame his actions on others.
Which is it?

It is neither 1 or 2.
3. It is nobody's fault. There are natural events that happen in the world.
God is not controlling anything and has no obligation to do do just because some atheists cannot accept reality.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have shown confirmation bias by insisting that the texts your belief are evidence for the truth of that belief.

Straw man. I never said let alone insisted that the texts of my belief are evidence for the truth of that belief.

You said that some passages contain magical prophesies and are therefore evidence Bahaullah was a messenger of god.

I never said that. Show me where I ever said that or retract the claim.

So, if you now withdraw claim, what is this "evidence" in his writings that you claim proves he was a messenger of god?

I never said that there is evidence in His writings that proves that He was a Messenger of God.

 

[EtuMalku]

Straw man. I never said let alone insisted that the texts of my belief are evidence for the truth of that belief.

I never said that. Show me where I ever said that or retract the claim.

I never said that there is evidence in His writings that proves that He was a Messenger of God.

Sure you have, I've pointed that out to you as well.

 

[rational experiences]

To practice. Human first.

What you preach a human in an experience.

Did you choose the experience?

No.

First advice.

Second advice.....are you special?

No. I am equal just the human first.

Really answered.

Do you quote I know God in science terms science of powers?

Yes say men.

That term is just science?

Yes.

So it's not the God a human trusts.as science kills. By determined power and chemical.

Did I trust God?

No.

Reason I saw my human family by psychic vision dying begging praying for help. Heard them. Saw them.

Why should I trust God in science?

Did I trust spirituality?

No.

Saw its organisation abuse.

Did I question was it real?

Yes.

So I chose to study it myself using a study method.

Which was to live the human term spirituality.

I trusted in the results I gained by learning myself. Not by indoctrination.

As indoctrination science and religion were both forced. Human behaviour group methods involved.

I knew family is the only natural group.

Then history says abused family.

Designer builder inventor civilization inventor men the abuser. How a man became controlling and rich. Group strategy against family.

Pretty basic advice. I don't need scientific advice to state a human truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

So what is it about his life that proves he was a messenger of god (KEY POINT)?

I never claimed that anything about His life proved that He was a Messenger. All I ever said that what He did in His life is part of the evidence that indicates He as a Messenger of God.

So you believe he was a messenger of god because he tells you he was.

Straw man. I believe He is a Messenger of God because of the evidence that indicates that (see paragraph below).

So you believe god exists because he tells you god exists.

Straw man. I believe that God exists because I believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

So this all hinges on that KEY POINT. You need to explain exactly what it is that Bahaullah said and did that convinces you he was a messenger of god - because at the moment all you are really saying is you believe he was a messenger of god because he says he was.

I never said or even implied that I believe He was a Messenger of God because he says he was.

It is not what Baha'u'llah said that convinced me that He was a Messenger of God, it is who He was as a person and what He did on His mission, including what He wrote.

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about the 'evidence' that establishes the truth of His claims. Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His mission and works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

 

[Trailblazer]

Dear god! That is the same thing!
Your religion = what Bahaullah explained in his writings.

Of course my religion is based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote. What else would it be based upon, what the tooth fairy wrote?

So we are back to that KEY POINT again.
What was it about Bahullah's writings that convinced you a god existed and that he was a messenger of that god.

It was not the Writings of Baha'u'llah that convinced me that the Baha'i Faith was the truth. It was the facts surrounding the Baha'i Faith. Only many years after I became a Baha'i did I even understand and appreciate the Writings of Baha'u'llah. I did not care much about God all those years although I believed that God existed.

I explained some of that in this post.

How important are facts within your religious beliefs?

The issue here is that there is nothing about his writings that would convince a well-adjusted, rational thinker that the Abrahamic god exists.

I would never expect His Writings to convince anyone that God exists. I already believed that God exists before I read His Writings because I had already deduced that God had to exist after I came to believe that the Baha'i Faith was a true religion from God.

 

[EtuMalku]

Of course my religion is based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote. What else would it be based upon, what the tooth fairy wrote?

It was not the Writings of Baha'u'llah that convinced me that the Baha'i Faith was the truth. It was the facts surrounding the Baha'i Faith. Only many years after I became a Baha'i did I even understand and appreciate the Writings of Baha'u'llah. I did not care much about God all those years although I believed that God existed.

I explained some of that in this post.

How important are facts within your religious beliefs?

I would never expect His Writings to convince anyone that God exists. I already believed that God exists before I read His Writings because I had already deduced that God had to exist after I came to believe that the Baha'i Faith was a true religion from God.

I have concluded that you are in CLD (Circular Logic Denial)

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe that the system that God has put in place for the present age is the Revelation of Baha'u'llah and as such we are living in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah.

I believe that the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is through the latest Messenger of God and that Messenger is Baha'u'llah. Baha’u’llah is the Messenger of God for the present dispensation and God wants us to recognize and follow Him.

And who was the previous dispensation named after? And, other than leaving the world in a mess, what was his purpose?

 

[CG Didymus]

I rarely ever quote the Old Testament.... ever noticed that?

Why quote the NT. It's written by people too.

I never claimed that the Bible is God's Word. At best it is God's testimony through the Holy Spirit, but much of the Bible is fictional stories that were used to convey spiritual truths.

Yeah, it's what the Baha'i Faith says about it that's important. But you asked where does it say that God inflicted pain and suffering, and the Bible is a correct answer to your question. Whether you or I believe the Bible is a different question.

 

[Trailblazer]

When I asked you for sources for you "independent investigation", you linked to Baha'i propaganda written by a Baha'i apologist. "Independent" means that is is not connected to the thing you are investigating.

No, that is not what independent investigation means. It means I investigated independently (by myself) rather that relying upon other people to investigate for me.

"Independent" does not mean that is is not connected to the thing you are investigating. Of course it is connected to the thing I am investigating. How could I know anything about what I am investigating unless it was connected to what I was investigating?

I have read about his life. I have read some of his writings. I have read apologists' arguments in favour of it. None of it is any more reasonable than the claims of any other religion. It fundamentally relies on acceptance of unsupported claims.

That's your personal opinion and you are welcome to it. We all have different opinions of what we investigate, different reasons for believing something is true or false.

You keep insisting that a god exists and that Bahaullah was his messenger.
Now, if you are actually saying that it is merely your belief and you could be wrong, then fair enough.

STRAW MAN. I never insisted on any such thing. I only ever said that is what I believe.
I am not going to say I could be wrong just to appease you, although that is hypothetically possible, because anyone could be wrong about anything, since humans are fallible.

The question you should be asking yourself is why it matters to you what I believe or if I believe I cannot be wrong. I am NOT telling you what to believe.

No, you don't have evidence. You have belief.

I have evidence, as delineated in a previous post, enough evidence to sink a ship.
If that does not constitute evidence for you, fine, but you cannot speak for me and what I have... I alone know what I have.

You have repeatedly stated that you know god exists because of Bahaullah's writings. IOW because he told you.

No, I never said that. I just told you that I believed that God existed because of what the Baha'i Faith teaches that I only read what Baha'u'llah wrote about God some time later after I had been a Baha'i for many years. I hope this is straightened out now as I see no reason to cover this same ground again.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'is do not need "a way out." We are in no way obligated to know about the past religions, not anymore than those who adhere to those religions are obligated to know about the Baha'i Faith.

"Oh, but Baha'is believe in progressive revelation" will be your response, but that does not cut the mustard because that does not mean we need to know about all the religions that ever existed. Saying that is just a way to try to manipulate us into answering the questions YOU have about the older religions. Nobody else asks us these questions, ever noticed that?

Baha'is have enough to read in our own Writings, so much that I have not even read everything. We don't have time to study older religions that do not apply to the present age. If Baha'is are interested in studying them that is their choice, but it is not a requirement.

It shows a huge lack in a personal investigation of truth. If you don't care, that's fine for you. But in your "teaching" or whatever you call the things you're doing, you make claims. If you claim Jesus did not physically rise from the dead, how do you support that belief? It all comes down to... your Baha'i beliefs told you so. But if you are going to say such things, you're going to have to have some knowledge of the Bible and the NT. But you don't care. Because it's been "abrogated". Great. I spent several minutes writing a song for you, and you don't care about that either. I'm so hurt.

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe the Lamb is the Bab. It is not Baha'u'llah, as Riggs said. It does not have to be Baha'u'llah for the Baha'is to be right. The Bab can be considered the return of the Christ Spirit since He ushered in the new age.

And why would you believe that without reading it for yourself. I posted a whole bunch of "lamb" verses for you. Do they sound like they are describing The Bab? Oh, and when does investigation of truth ends?

 

[CG Didymus]

No, we do not do that because we don't have to since the prophecies are all about Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

It is the Christians who try to make the prophecies about Jesus when they can never be about Jesus, who never promised to return but rather said that His work was finished on earth and He was NO LONGER in the world. Not once in the entire New Testament did Jesus ever say He was coming back to earth.

I'd say Christians and Baha'is do it. One prophecy... The return of Kalki, the tenth Avatar of Vishnu. If Krishna was the eighth and Buddha the nineth and Baha'u'llah the tenth? Jesus, Muhammad, and The Bab got skipped? Or Baha'is just put it out there and hope no one will notice or care.

Then there are the three "Woes" in Revelation. Baha'is say they are Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. That "woe" means a manifestation? Here's Abdul Baha...

The explanation of this subject, woe, is mentioned in the thirtieth chapter of Ezekiel, where it is said: “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near.” 23
Therefore, it is certain that the day of woe is the day of the Lord​

But "woe" is used .. "In the King James version the word - Woe - appears 106 times" And what does it mean? "The word that Jesus uses...is the Greek word, ouai and it means, “a primary exclamation of grief” (Stongs). Zodhiates writes of this word, “of denouncing misery and pitying it; alas!”