Do you trust God?

[Trailblazer]

Ye gods, it gets worse...
offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works

IOW, his "proof" that the was a messenger of god is his claim that he is a messenger of god.

STRAW MAN. His words and works are His Writings and what He accomplished on His Mission, NOT is his claim that he is a Messenger of God.

and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.”

So anyone who can transform people's lives or character is a messenger of god?

STRAW MAN. I never claimed that the effects in transforming the lives and characters of men proves that He was a Messenger of God. It is evidence that indicates that He might have been, but much more evidence would be needed in order to ascertain that.

I never said the evidence that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God is that He told us that He is a Messenger of God. How many times do I have to repeat this?

You just presented a quote that said precisely that!
"offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words"

Sorry, you do not understand what is meant by “His words.” It means His Writings in their entirety. It does not mean words where told us that He is a Messenger of God.

No, there is no proof that His Writings are true, all we have is the evidence that indicates the truth of His claims.

I still have a nagging suspicion that you are actually a very sophisticated troll.
"proof that His Writings are true"
"evidence that indicates the truth of His claims"
These two statements are identical!

Why didn’t you post everything I said?

No, there is no proof that His Writings are true,

all we have is the evidence that indicates the truth of His claims.

No, those statements are not identical because proof is not the same thing as evidence. Evidence indicate something is true and proof establishes something as a fact.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened. ‘
Objective evidence definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

All we have is the evidence that indicates the truth of His claims but there is no proof that His Writings are true, because nobody can ever prove that Baha’u’llah (or any alleged Messenger) actually received messages from God. That is a belief that has to be believed on faith and evidence.

I am sorry that you did not understand the difference between proof and evidence, but the polite thing to do would have been to ask me what I meant by what I said, not call me a troll.

I am not the one who is a troll. Everyone on this forum knows I am no troll.

 

[Trailblazer]

You claimed that god's omnipotence doesn't mean he can do absolutely anything, only what it is in his nature to do.

Therefore my "omnipotence" is the same as your god's, because likewise I cannot do absolutely anything, only what it is in my nature to do.

That is illogical. You are a human so you can only do what is within your human nature to do.
You are not omnipotent by nature, only God is omnipotent by nature, so you have no omnipotence.

Please show me where God ever inflicted any killing and suffering and evil on the world.

You claim that everything happens by god's will. If you "will" something then you actively make it happen.
Therefore the earthquake that crushed 100 children in a school was "god's will".
The babies with cancer are "god's will".
The many millions who died in agony from disease and hunger over the last 100,000 years were all "god's will".

God did not will an earthquake to happen or babies to get cancer. These things just happen in a material world.

As you believe in, worship and agree with this god, can you explain why he does all this (and much, much more)?

Who ever said I agreed with or worship this God? Those are your words.
I do not know why God allows certain things to happen.

God does not have to live up to any human standards. God is all-good by His nature.

By what standards? By our any human standard, he is clearly not all good.

God is not measured by human standards, you have that backwards. Humans are measured by God standards since God sets the standards for humans.

By the moral standards he imposes on us he is clearly not "all good".

Do you mean because you don’t like them? Who are you to judge God?

On what do you base the claim that he is "all good"?

It certainly isn't any evidence. Don't tell me, is it because Bahaullah tells you he is all good?

Baha’u’llah does write that so I believe it even though my ego tells me otherwise.

Everything that happens is according to God's will because it can only happen if God allows it to happen.

So not you accept that all that death and suffering is due to "god's will".

Yes, in the sense that God allows it to happen, but God does not cause it to happen..

Free will exists because God gave man free will but God can override our free will choices, if He chooses to.

You are contradicting yourself.
Either everything happens by god's will, or it doesn't.
Which is it?

Much of what happens happens because of human free will decisions and the ensuing actions.
Other things that happen are fated/predestined by God to happen

Only in the sense that God either fates or allows things to happen is it God’s will.

 

[Trailblazer]

So - and this is the important bit that you keep avoiding - what are the things that this "investigation" brought to light that support Bahullah's claim that a specific god exists and he was its messenger.

Like getting blood out of a stone!

Why I believe His claims is subjective, and there are too many reasons to put in a post.
Mainly it is the facts about the Baha'i Faith that I posted to you before:

How important are facts within your religious beliefs?

But it is how I views that facts that led me to my conclusions. Not all people will view those facts the same way I did and that is why they won't come to the same conclusions I did.

 

[Trailblazer]

More question begging. Of course they are. What he wrote is nothing special or essentially different to other spiritual doctrines.

Did I say it was special? Much of it is different though, since it was nor revealed in past religions.

So, why do you believe that only someone communication with god could write what he wrote?
Give some examples.

It is subjective, not objective, so I cannot explain it to you.

Oh, this is new! So far you have been telling us that his message is the evidence.
So, what are these other reasons?

No, I never said His message is the evidence. That is just the straw man you keep repeating.

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about the 'evidence' that establishes the truth of His claims. Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His mission and works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

 

[Trailblazer]

If you keep telling different people something, and they all tell you it's nonsense, then perhaps the problem is with what you are saying rather than everyone else? Especially given that on close examination, what you are saying consists of a just a bunch of fallacies over some religious platitudes.

Who is everyone else? They are atheists. Of course they are going to think my religion is nonsense but no atheists has ever shown how I committed any fallacies.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is supposed to be satire, yes?

No, not at all.

Is there any reason I should believe fictitious stories that people (not Messengers of God) wrote about what God did? You have to be kidding. I am a Baha'i, not a Christian, and I thank God for that every single minute of every single hour of every single day.

 

[Trailblazer]

You claim that nothing happens without god willing it.

No, I never claimed that. I claimed that nothing happens unless God allows it to happen.
Humans will things to happen and act on their will and thereby cause things to happen. God allows or disallows them to happen.

 

[Trailblazer]

No there isn't, as demonstrated by your inability to present it.

I have presented it on numerous occasions.

Oh **** me, this is priceless.
So only certain, special people are able to see that evidence. People who have been chosen by god. And you are one of them.

Yes, that is what I believe. Whatcha gonna do about it besides make fun of me?
You cannot hurt me because God is my greatest protection.

“Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation. The memory of this night will never be forgotten. May it never be effaced by the passage of time, and may its mention linger for ever on the lips of men.”
The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586

 

[Trailblazer]

Because, as you have repeatedly admitted, nothing happens that is not willed by god.
That is a straw man and a misrepresentation of what I said.

I said that nothing happens that God does not allow to happen.
God allowed Covid to happen because He did not stop it from happening but God did not cause Covid to happen.

Therefore, everything that happens, happens because god made it happen.

No, I never said that. That is another straw man.

So, either god causes the death directly - which is murder, or he stands by and watches - which is manslaughter by gross negligence.
Either way, such a god is morally bankrupt. Certainly not worthy of worship, or even respect. It is only worthy of contempt.

Stands by and watches, as if God was a human being. God is not responsible to come to earth and play Superman. This is one of the most childish beliefs some atheists hold. Wa wa wa, I want my cookie.... bad God did not give me my cookie.

Believe whatever you want to about God. It is your soul, not mine.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you admit that there is nothing in Bahaullah's writings that show he is a messenger of god.
So, on what do you base your claim?

There is nothing in Baha'u'llah's writings that proves that He is a Messenger of God.
I made no claim. Baha'u'llah made the claim. I just believe the claim.

 

[Trailblazer]

How can the be messengers of god if there is no god?

There can't be.

So as you admit you cannot show your god exists, your position is untenable. Your belief is groundless.

I never claimed that I can show that God exists. Is that what you were hoping for?
Nobody has ever SHOWN that God exists and nobody ever will.

 

[EtuMalku]

There can't be.

I never claimed that I can show that God exists. Is that what you were hoping for?
Nobody has ever SHOWN that God exists and nobody ever will.

Why not?

 

[Trailblazer]

But you said that part of what led you to believe the religion was true was the writings of Bahaullah.
You really are all over the place.

That is part of the reason I came to believe but not all of it, and initially it did not pay a very big part.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why not?

Because God does not want to be shown to exist.

 

[Trailblazer]

So not everything happens by the will of god

I never claimed it did.

 

[rational experiences]

The human teachings basic science.

A human is a life equal to any human by being a being human.

Mass is not singularly owned.

The mass heavens we live within is nature plant garden oxygenated and water.

Basic.

Not basic. Scientific machine caused fallout irradiation event.

Inequality introduced.

Basic advice also.

Basic highest teaching if the age zero Jesus. No man is God. No man is gods son. Jesus was gods only in science.

Man was only advised.

Jesus teaching. Do not self idolise.

So I don't.

I knew I had a different life biology human mind advice. I reasoned why I inherited it.

Zero AD the teaching status. What humans inherited since to advise.

Advise however as already taught.

 

[Trailblazer]

More credulous circular logic.
"I believe whatever Bahaullah said because he is a messenger of god, and I know this because he said he is, and I trust him because he is a messenger of god..."

More straw men.

 

[EtuMalku]

Because God does not want to be shown to exist.

How would you know that?

 

[rational experiences]

If a scientist just a human first theories what do you theorise?

Science.

What gave you the ideas science?

Your owned self presence.

Did you theorise about what you weren't?

Yes says men.

The theory said I was told the advice by my study of other bodies

So you quote God the O state science earth history told and taught me.

Is a human man of sciences expressive advice.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you admit that god does kill people.

I said: Some natural disasters such as earthquakes can be considered God's doing,
I did not say God kills people. Another straw man.

So all weather-related natural disasters before the industrial revolution were all god's doing. So more death and suffering caused by god.

And you still believe he is "all good"?
Perhaps "good" has a different meaning for god. Maybe he likes to see people suffering. He sees that as "good".

Not caused by God, allowed by God.
I don't judge God as good or bad by the suffering I see in the world because it is not my place to judge God....
By all rights I should hate God given my life has been nothing but suffering. I used to hate God and it took many years to get past that. I still don't love God but I am sure God understands and forgives. The only unforgivable sin is hating God.

Many, probably most, of people who are affected by natural disasters thank God that they survived and the ones who did not survive are a lot better off tan those who have to continue living in this material world which is a storehouse of suffering.

The real suffering is reserved for people who hate God because of suffering.