Do you want the Ukrainian War to end today?

[TagliatelliMonster]

One question: who do you think undid the two pipelines Nordstream1 and Nordstream2?

Could be anyone. Multiple parties had motive. Including Russia.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Shall I think good things about Zelenskyy?
No...
he sends his fellow Ukrainians to die...

So do you also think badly about Churchill?
He send his fellow british to die as well after all.

Why doesn't he try to find an agreement with Russia?

Because he's not a coward like you

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If Germany invaded Luxembourg, could Luxembourg defeat Germany?
I guess it could never do that.

Might makes right?
Should Germany do that, do you think they should get away with it?
Should Luxembourgh also not defend itself?
Should Luxembourghs allies not come to its aid?

We should all just bend over and allow illegal wars of aggression to be won by the aggressor no questions asked and no repercussions?

No...Putin has never said that. At the beginning he tried to denazify the entire country, and to overthrow Zelenskyy.
But then he changed his mind, I guess.
This is not the same thing as conquering Ukraine. He would have allowed democratic elections.

Funny

Putin admits Ukraine invasion is an imperial war to “return” Russian land

By abandoning all pretense and comparing himself to Peter the Great, Russian dictator Vladimir Putin has confirmed that he is waging an old-fashioned imperial war of conquest with the goal of annexing Ukrainian land.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Because everything was perfectly fine...before the American Deep State colonized Ukraine an turned her into their anti-Putin base.

You really do live on your own little planet, do you?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I do speak for the EU, yes.

You really really don't.

 

[Estro Felino]

Could be anyone. Multiple parties had motive. Including Russia.

Russia didn't say "we will bring an end to the pipelines"
Someone else said it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Russia didn't say "we will bring an end to the pipelines"
Someone else said it.

Russia turned energy into an economic weapon well before those pipelines were destroyed.
EU countries had already decided and informed the world that they would do whatever they can to move away from Russia as a supplier.
So their income would dry up anyway. And if Russia would wait till EU countries themselves stopped buying, Russia would have no more leverage and could no longer abuse their supply chain to cause harm.

Blowing up the pipelines fits that context perfectly. One last blast that hit the economy very hard, with prices of all kinds souring.
For Russia it wasn't a big loss, because they themselves were already frequently shutting it down and lowering capacity anyway (for the sole purpose of hitting the economy of Ukrainian allies, nothing short of economic warfar). And they knew full well that it was only a matter of time before EU would buy no more by themselves.



On the other hand, other parties at this side of the table could also have decided that the process of moving away from Russia as a supplier wasn't going fast enough and then forced our hand by blowing it up, forcing us to find other suppliers quick. Like ripping a bandaid off quickly instead of carefully to soften the blow.

Both scenario's are realistic.

 

[F1fan]

Russia didn't say "we will bring an end to the pipelines"
Someone else said it.

putin is the only leader in Europe that would cut off his nose to spite his face. He is a sociopath who thinks the ends justifies the means. He does not care who he hurts and kills, and that is why he is unfit to be leader (dictator) of any nation.

 

[Estro Felino]

putin is the only leader in Europe that would cut off his nose to spite his face. He is a sociopath who thinks the ends justifies the means. He does not care who he hurts and kills, and that is why he is unfit to be leader (dictator) of any nation.

In a trial these arguments are considered grasping at straws.
The responsible is always the one who announces their own crime.

Not the victim who undergoes the crime.
Russia is the victim. It's their pipelines.

 

[Estro Felino]

Russia turned energy into an economic weapon well before those pipelines were destroyed.
EU countries had already decided and informed the world that they would do whatever they can to move away from Russia as a supplier.
So their income would dry up anyway. And if Russia would wait till EU countries themselves stopped buying, Russia would have no more leverage and could no longer abuse their supply chain to cause harm.

Blowing up the pipelines fits that context perfectly. One last blast that hit the economy very hard, with prices of all kinds souring.
For Russia it wasn't a big loss, because they themselves were already frequently shutting it down and lowering capacity anyway (for the sole purpose of hitting the economy of Ukrainian allies, nothing short of economic warfare). And they knew full well that it was only a matter of time before EU would buy no more by themselves.

If they wanted to stop the gas supply...they really needed to push a button.
To interrupt the supply.

 

[F1fan]

In a trial these arguments are considered grasping at straws.

We can see your sympathy to criminal leaders, and unethical business people.

The responsible is always the one who announces their own crime.

Like putin invading Ukraine, criminally. And his despertation has devolved to war crimes.

Not the victim who undergoes the crime.
Russia is the victim. It's their pipelines.

As I said, putin is not a humanitarian or ethical. He is a guy who wants to cause as much harm as he can to attain his aims. That he blew up how own pipeline for confusion and disinformation is not a shock. Those like putin don't realize that other people aren't as sociopathic and expect sane people to think as putin does. Not doubt he wonders why the West doesn't buy all his propaganda and sabotage, like you do. For some reason you buy putin's propaganda, and reject reason.

 

[Estro Felino]

We can see your sympathy to criminal leaders, and unethical business people.

Like putin invading Ukraine, criminally. And his despertation has devolved to war crimes.

As I said, putin is not a humanitarian or ethical. He is a guy who wants to cause as much harm as he can to attain his aims. That he blew up how own pipeline for confusion and disinformation is not a shock. Those like putin don't realize that other people aren't as sociopathic and expect sane people to think as putin does. Not doubt he wonders why the West doesn't buy all his propaganda and sabotage, like you do. For some reason you buy putin's propaganda, and reject reason.

Nobody denies that Russians are at fault, as for the war.

Tell me one single reason why I shouldn't believe it was the shady élites across the Atlantic Ocean.
Because in the US, people are all holy, immaculate, sinless saints, virgins and martyrs?

Just one reason.

 

[Estro Felino]

Those laws are about STARTING wars of aggression. They are not about defending yourself from an invading aggressor.

Get a clue.

Is Ukraine in the NATO?
No.
So the EU doesn't have any obligation to help them defend themselves.
We can help them economically and through humanitarian aid.
Period.

 

[F1fan]

Nobody denies that Russians are at fault, as for the war.

Tell me one single reason why I shouldn't believe it was the shady élites across the Atlantic Ocean.

You already believe this nonsense without evidence, so why would you admit being wrong due to evidence?

Because in the US, people are all holy, immaculate, sinless saints, virgins and martyrs?

Just one reason.

It's prejudice. And we know your reliance on disinformation.

 

[Estro Felino]

You already believe this nonsense without evidence, so why would you admit being wrong due to evidence?

It's prejudice. And we know your reliance on disinformation.

Honestly, I won't be duped by anyone.
I believe my ears only.

 

[Estro Felino]

That kind of thinking is what made the Italian mob so big in the US that you couldn't even build a dog house without their explicit permission.

I am against people's bossiness. You got me all wrong.
Unfortunately this war is due to intransigence of both parties.

You gave a good example. Mobsters kill one another in feuds...because they are both arrogant, and hate compromise: they see it as an act of weakness.

What you are talking about is peace. It's surrender to a bully who will just keep on bullying, knowing they will get away with it AND get what they want.

Say they do this, they surrender the four regions. Then 2 years down the line Russia invades again. Another region. And again. Another region. And again. Another region. And again. And there goes the entirety of Ukraine. Then it turns to their other neighbours. Another region. And again, anothe region,...etc

There is a way:
let Ukraine join the NATO and the EU...and the possibility of new invasions will be reduced to zero.

Nobody would dare invade a NATO country.
After this war is over of course.

But I understood you don't want Ukraine to join the EU...
so...
you want Ukraine to remain in a limbo?

 

[lukethethird]

War Is a Racket is a speech and a 1935 short book by Smedley D. Butler

it contains this summary:

War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.

Butler confesses that during his decades of service in the United States Marine Corps:

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

wiki

 

[lukethethird]

putin is the only leader in Europe that would cut off his nose to spite his face. He is a sociopath who thinks the ends justifies the means. He does not care who he hurts and kills, and that is why he is unfit to be leader (dictator) of any nation.

I totally agree, and I would extend that sentiment to the neocons in Washington DC.

 

[metis]

As a conclusion, Obama's decisions make Putin look like a saint.

Is this some sort of joke? If so, maybe look for some new material.

 

[Estro Felino]

Is this some sort of joke? If so, maybe look for some new material.

One question:
do you love my country?
Or you hate it?

Answer this question first.