Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[Revoltingest]

I am not an Orthodox.
I was speaking of my own religion.

Meh...just different flavors of Christian.
And don't forget whom Italy supported in WW2.

 

[sun rise]

What religion isn't afflicted with that, eh.

Drawing with a broad brush: Buddhism although as with anything there are fanatics.

Everyone with a religion believes theirs is best.

Absolutist comments like that are false. Many believe their religion is best FOR THEM.

Those who follow a spiritual path and are also faithful to religious structures are inclined that way.

Rumi said

Today, like every other day,
we wake up empty and frightened.
Don’t open the door to the study and begin reading.
Take down a musical instrument.
Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground.​

 

[Revoltingest]

Absolutist comments like that are false.

That sounds like an absolute comment.
I stand by my generality.

 

[DNB]

I'm an atheist. I do want to believe in God and abide by His precepts. It was my quest to figure out which precepts were his and how to abide by them that eventually turned me into an atheist, because I could find no evidence that any precepts come from God rather than men claiming to speak for God.

Worse than that, with the refined techniques I developed to discover truth, I realized that the God I was searching for is outright impossible. So I came to a position where I was forced to admit that, from what I could tell, there are no precepts and there is no God.

Can you imagine how unpleasant that experience is? The one being in existence that you could trust in isn't there. The one friend that was with you the whole time, listening to every prayer, watching every trouble, they were never actually there to pay attention to you at all. The force guiding all of your actions to make sure that everything would turn out okay doesn't exist and life actually has no safety net at all.

I wish I could believe in God. I wish God was real. It would be such a relief to know that, despite how rough everything is down here, a loving, powerful, and wise father would make sure everything turned out the way it's supposed to be. That would be awesome.

If you actually have "axiomatic" evidence that God is real, lay it on me. All I've found are fallacious arguments like the Teleological Argument, the Ontological Argument, the Cosmological Argument, the Moral Argument, the Argument from Fine-Tuning, etc. which don't hold up to critical scrutiny. If you can provide something better than these, I'm all ears. If you have actual evidence for the existence of God, then that's even better: go get it peer-reviewed and submitted to a reputable academic journal. You'll probably win a Nobel Prize for that.

Excuse what may appear on the surface to be a trite response: why in the world do you, and 99% of humans that have ever lived, seek justice and equity, when absolutely no other creature on earth does to such a definitive degree that men do?
Humans are spiritual creatures - having thoughts that transcend the secular. These are not solely practical placebos that allow men to tolerate one another, there are fundamental principles that define each individuals character.

Such a spiritual dimension in man was not derived from stardust and protoplasm, but a spiritual source - God is spirit.

 

[F1fan]

Christians are those who accept Jesus as their saviour, and by doing so, abide by his precepts. When we fail, as we always will, we repent.

Well I have to say that being a Christian and working in a concentration camp is a tad bit more severe than "not abiding by his precepts". You yourself are judging atheists unfairly and harshly, so you are in the same category.

What Nazi, or definitive lawbreaker do you know that fits the above description?

Do you want a list of names of all the christians who worked in concentration camps and who heled with extreminating the Jews? Do you deny they were crimes?

What is wrong with you flippin' atheists - has the skill or necessity of dialectics entirely eluded you all?

I'm worried about Christians like you who don't abide to Jesus' precepts. You don't seem willing to follow what Jesus taught about not judging others.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

No. Atheism does not lead to immoral behavior. But it leads to nihilism, which is worse.

 

[F1fan]

No. Atheism does not lead to immoral behavior. But it leads to nihilism, which is worse.

What examples are there that indicate this happens? I am an atheists who is not a nihlist. I doubt the others on this forum are either. So what is your data, and explain it.

For reference:
ni·hil·ism
/ˈnīəˌliz(ə)m,ˈnēəˌliz(ə)m/
noun

1. the rejection of all religious and moral principles, in the belief that life is meaningless.

 

[DNB]

No, you mistook me for an intrinsically evil and immoral poster.

Nope, that part I got correct!

 

[DNB]

Well I have to say that being a Christian and working in a concentration camp is a tad bit more severe than "not abiding by his precepts". You yourself are judging atheists unfairly and harshly, so you are in the same category.


Do you want a list of names of all the christians who worked in concentration camps and who heled with extreminating the Jews? Do you deny they were crimes?


I'm worried about Christians like you who don't abide to Jesus' precepts. You don't seem willing to follow what Jesus taught about not judging others.

I'm constantly worried about atheist like you who incessantly use the 'do not judge card', but invariably fail to understand the profundity of its meaning.
Jesus meant do not judge either hypocritically or self-righteously - but do judge everything under the sun as to whether something is perverse or not, corrupt or not, beneficial or not, deceitful or not, reliable or not, true or not, good or not, ....

There is an inherent corruption in all atheists.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

What examples are there that indicate this happens? I am an atheists who is not a nihlist. I doubt the others on this forum are either. So what is your data, and explain it.

For reference:
ni·hil·ism
/ˈnīəˌliz(ə)m,ˈnēəˌliz(ə)m/
noun

1. the rejection of all religious and moral principles, in the belief that life is meaningless.

Not all atheists are nihilist, but all nihilists are atheist. I have an anti-theist and atheist friend who, upon questioning him regarding these matters, seems to be nihilist and going through existential crises when I discuss these topics with him. He does have morals, but the value of his own morals are only sustained by his own principles. He often thinks there is no point or meaning in life and I find that really sad.

 

[F1fan]

Not all atheists are nihilist, but all nihilists are atheist.

That would be the case since nihlists don't believe in anything. But you said atheism leads to nihlism, how does that work?

I have an anti-theist and atheist friend who, upon questioning him regarding these matters, seems to be nihilist and going through existential crises when I discuss these topics with him. He does have morals, but the value of his own morals are only sustained by his own principles. He often thinks there is no point or meaning in life and I find that really sad.

How do you extrapolate that atheism leads to nihlism in just one case? Could it be your friend just has problems?

I'm constantly worried about atheist like you who incessantly use the 'do not judge card', but invariably fail to understand the profundity of its meaning.

It's Jesus' card for you "Christians", and it's odd you ignore it. Can you offer an explanation why you ignore something Jesus taught?

Jesus meant do not judge either hypocritically or self-righteously - but do judge everything under the sun as to whether something is perverse or not, corrupt or not, beneficial or not, deceitful or not, reliable or not, true or not, good or not, ....

See, this is what you do. Self-righteous and hypocritical describes your approach. Did you learn this, or is it a natural trait?

There is an inherent corruption in all atheists.

You are just projecting your own bad faith.

 

[Brian2]

Not trusting God led Adam and Eve to immoral behaviour.
Not believing in God means there is no trust in God and what He says is right or wrong.
That would lead to more doing what the atheist wanted to do instead of what God says to do.
That would mean more immoral behaviour,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but not from the pov of the atheist who probably does not consider what God is meant to have said or as even being true.

 

[F1fan]

Not trusting God led Adam and Eve to immoral behaviour.

That is a myth that had a plot written for a purpose by the authors, notably that: there's a God, it has rules, we leaders are middlemen to an absent God, so what we say are God's rules.
It's a myth, not factual, so irrelevant.

Not believing in God means there is no trust in God and what He says is right or wrong.

Atheists don;t believe in any of the many Gods, so what would there be to trust? You don't trust Mickey Mouse, do you?

That would lead to more doing what the atheist wanted to do instead of what God says to do.

There are no Gods known to exist, only mortals who claim any number of versions of God exists, and they claim to know God and what it wants. Notice Muslims won;t follow the rules of Christian leaders, and vise versa, so it isn't just atheists not following what "God says".

That would mean more immoral behaviour,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Right, like flying hijacked planes into office buildings because that is God's will.

but not from the pov of the atheist who probably does not consider what God is meant to have said or as even being true.

Atheists won't follow mortals who claim to speak for absent Gods, nor fly planes into buildings, so what are you talking about? What makes theists so damned moral when we can point to lists of criminal, immoral acts in the name of God?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Not trusting God led Adam and Eve to immoral behaviour.
Not believing in God means there is no trust in God and what He says is right or wrong.
That would lead to more doing what the atheist wanted to do instead of what God says to do.
That would mean more immoral behaviour,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but not from the pov of the atheist who probably does not consider what God is meant to have said or as even being true.

Immoral behaviour is generally caused by the inability to govern oneself when one wants what one is not entitled to, or on achieving, would cause harm to anyone else. Believing or not believing in gods, fairies, spaghetti monsters or reincarnation has nothing to do with it.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

That would be the case since nihlists don't believe in anything. But you said atheism leads to nihlism, how does that work?

OK, so I do realize that many atheists are not nihilists. In fact, there is a large group of atheists who are anti-nihilist because God doesn't exist to them. Why is this? Because without God telling them what to do, they are free to make up their own points for their existence. They are fulfilled and happy because they aren't tied down to some divine weight that places something more important than everything else.

How do you extrapolate that atheism leads to nihlism in just one case? Could it be your friend just has problems?

But yeah, some atheists are nihilist, and don't even find meaning behind their own meanings towards life, and have almost-permanent existential crises when you even mention the word meaning to them. My one friend has this problem, but my parents are also atheists and they have plenty of meaning and value in their lives. So the phenomenon of losing meaning without God isn't true for all atheists.

 

[F1fan]

OK, so I do realize that many atheists are not nihilists. In fact, there is a large group of atheists who are anti-nihilist because God doesn't exist to them. Why is this? Because without God telling them what to do, they are free to make up their own points for their existence.

Do you think believers in some sort of God results in their Gods magically telling them what to do? How do you explain all the criminal, immoral, unethical, and inhumane things believers do via God's will? Why isn't there more consistency, or are there many Gods, oir just one evil God that wants to screw with believers?

They are fulfilled and happy because they aren't tied down to some divine weight that places something more important than everything else.

Is the weight really divine? That sounds counter-intuitive. I suggest the weight is rigid dogmas that suffocate the human siprit. And why assume any God is behind any of the many dogmas that contradict each other?

But yeah, some atheists are nihilist, and don't even find meaning behind their own meanings towards life, and have almost-permanent existential crises when you even mention the word meaning to them. My one friend has this problem, but my parents are also atheists and they have plenty of meaning and value in their lives. So the phenomenon of losing meaning without God isn't true for all atheists.

I suspect nihlists are rare, and have their own reasons for being quiet.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

Do you think believers in some sort of God results in their Gods magically telling them what to do? How do you explain all the criminal, immoral, unethical, and inhumane things believers do via God's will? Why isn't there more consistency, or are there many Gods, oir just one evil God that wants to screw with believers?

i don't know how to answer this. In the Abrahamic faiths everybody can talk to God, as God is infinitely knowing of all, but, only the prophets could have heard God talk back... If there are people out there who do believe God talks back to them, they're usually viewed as crazy.

Plus, isn't it obvious by now there is more good in the world than bad? It's not God telling people to do good nor bad, just a natural desire to do either. People in abusive relationships tend to be abusive themselves, whereas loving, caring people spread that love towards the ones they care for. And so on.

Is the weight really divine? That sounds counter-intuitive. I suggest the weight is rigid dogmas that suffocate the human siprit. And why assume any God is behind any of the many dogmas that contradict each other?

I've developed my own divine weight. Mine is simply to become God, because if I become God, I can be more generous. Generosity is the reason why God, and in return, we exist. So I do things to show my generosity and good will towards others. That to me is natural divinity. Some people will say that divinity is supernatural, "out of this world" kind of thing. I disagree with that notion.

I suspect nihlists are rare, and have their own reasons for being quiet.

There's sub-sections of Facebook dedicated towards nihilism and nihilistic culture. Nihilism memes even. I don't know, but I find nihilist memes kind of pointless...

 

[Ella S.]

Excuse what may appear on the surface to be a trite response: why in the world do you, and 99% of humans that have ever lived, seek justice and equity, when absolutely no other creature on earth does to such a definitive degree that men do?

It depends on what you mean by "justice and equity." The majority of people, including you, do not live by the majority of concepts of justice or equity. We can only live by a select few interpretations of those words without running into contradictions.

For instance, should you lie to save a life? Either answer you give, you've violated some concept of justice and some concept of equity.

So I think the question you're asking is flawed. Nobody really seeks justice or equity in and of themselves. They seek more precise concepts and then call those justice or equity. That's easy enough to understand. Humans are capable of having a wide range of desires.

Humans are spiritual creatures - having thoughts that transcend the secular. These are not solely practical placebos that allow men to tolerate one another, there are fundamental principles that define each individuals character.

Such a spiritual dimension in man was not derived from stardust and protoplasm, but a spiritual source - God is spirit.

I disagree. Desire is material. We specifically evolved prosocial desires and mechanisms like reciprocal altruism because they are adaptive evolutionary strategies. Ants, bees, termites, wolves, dolphins, and lions also developed similar evolutionary strategies.

I would not call them "placebos." They are not induced by any sort of illusion. They're more of a product of complex biochemistry and neuronal activity. There are not really any principles at the heart of it. It's just emotion and the moralizing of emotion.

 

[DNB]

It depends on what you mean by "justice and equity." The majority of people, including you, do not live by the majority of concepts of justice or equity. We can only live by a select few interpretations of those words without running into contradictions.

For instance, should you lie to save a life? Either answer you give, you've violated some concept of justice and some concept of equity.

So I think the question you're asking is flawed. Nobody really seeks justice or equity in and of themselves. They seek more precise concepts and then call those justice or equity. That's easy enough to understand. Humans are capable of having a wide range of desires.



I disagree. Desire is material. We specifically evolved prosocial desires and mechanisms like reciprocal altruism because they are adaptive evolutionary strategies. Ants, bees, termites, wolves, dolphins, and lions also developed similar evolutionary strategies.

I would not call them "placebos." They are not induced by any sort of illusion. They're more of a product of complex biochemistry and neuronal activity. There are not really any principles at the heart of it. It's just emotion and the moralizing of emotion.

We repulse at evil, murder, rape, kidnapping, prostitution, drug dealing, etc....
Why do no other creatures have the same sentiments? They kill each other indiscriminately and lose no sleep overt it. They eat each other alive, and will even kill their own for extremely inhumane reasons. They don't protest when another animal steals their food, or cry when a family member dies - no eulogy or funeral

 

[Brian2]

That is a myth that had a plot written for a purpose by the authors, notably that: there's a God, it has rules, we leaders are middlemen to an absent God, so what we say are God's rules.
It's a myth, not factual, so irrelevant.

Atheists don;t believe in any of the many Gods, so what would there be to trust? You don't trust Mickey Mouse, do you?

There are no Gods known to exist, only mortals who claim any number of versions of God exists, and they claim to know God and what it wants. Notice Muslims won;t follow the rules of Christian leaders, and vise versa, so it isn't just atheists not following what "God says".

Right, like flying hijacked planes into office buildings because that is God's will.

Atheists won't follow mortals who claim to speak for absent Gods, nor fly planes into buildings, so what are you talking about? What makes theists so damned moral when we can point to lists of criminal, immoral acts in the name of God?

So we agree:
>>>That would mean more immoral behaviour,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but not from the pov of the atheist who probably does not consider what God is meant to have said or as even being true.<<<