Does Atheism Lead to Nihilism?

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

I am an open nihilist, but can't speak for other believers.

Yes, the word 'Inherent' is crucial.

Can you provide an example of something 'meaningful' that was not born of someone's subjective experiences?

Where does the very concept of meaning come from? (Yes this is a rhetorical question)

 

[Augustus]

So does, or can, atheism lead logically to nihilism?

Nihilism is a result of the lack of narrative/mythology surrounding existence, and especially a lack of shared narrative/mythology.

There is no reason that such a narrative has to be theistic, but theistic narratives seem to be the most successful if we look at history impartially.

As such I imagine you could positively correlate atheism with nihilism, but it doesn't necessarily lead to nihilism.

 

[Rival]

Can you provide an example of something 'meaningful' that was not born of someone's subjective experiences?

Where does the very concept of meaning come from? (Yes this is a rhetorical question)

I am not arguing. I am a nihilist. I don't believe there is meaning to begin with.

 

[George-ananda]

Does Atheism Lead to Nihilism?

To me the more important question than 'God' is 'am I just a very temporary formation of matter or am I a soul/spirit that is beyond this material existence and plane?'. Now, if I was a materialist I would be drawn to a depressive and nihilistic view of things. I would think we are concerning ourselves with sand castles that we know will be annihilated by the next tide. And I would not like the thought of all my loved ones no longer experiencing anything. Now many atheist-materialist will find meaning in these sand castles to keep them occupied and content. And I'm sure if I was an atheist-materialist I would try and be somewhat successful at finding that too.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

I am not arguing. I am a nihilist. I don't believe there is meaning to begin with.

So you are asserting that nothing can be meaningful to anyone, period.

Yet your only argument is - because you believe that.

Ok then. Have fun with that.

 

[Rival]

So you are asserting that nothing can be meaningful to anyone, period.

Yet your only argument is - because you believe that.

Ok then. Have fun with that.

No its not because I believe that.

Explain to me how subjective meaning is meaning. Subjective meaning still asserts that life is inherently meaningless because it needs us to GIVE it meaning. So your starting and ultimate ending, I.e post you (after your death) position is nihilism.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

No its not because I believe that.

Explain to me how subjective meaning is meaning. Subjective meaning still asserts that life is inherently meaningless because it needs us to GIVE it meaning. So your starting and ultimate ending, I.e post you (after your death) position is nihilism.

I already have. I'm not sure you are reading my replies closely.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

...itself? The meaning of life must be inherent to life itself, independent of human thought.

Independent of human thought is just an abstraction. Human thought is all we have to work with.

 

[Willamena]

Exactly. This means there is no meaning. Meaning must be intrinsic imo.

"Subjective" is not eliminative. Both perspectives--subjective and objective-- exist as we do. Both are gone with us.

 

[Willamena]

Explain to me how subjective meaning is meaning. Subjective meaning still asserts that life is inherently meaningless because it needs us to GIVE it meaning.

We exist.

Subjective meaning is meaning because we exist.

 

[LuisDantas]

To me the more important question than 'God' is 'am I just a very temporary formation of matter or am I a soul/spirit that is beyond this material existence and plane?'

Myself, I take a third option: I am a temporary link that takes part in a vast network of human interactions that long preceded me and is more than likely to outlast me considerably.

More significant, that network has a lot of ability of creating meaningful purpose.

 

[George-ananda]

Myself, I take a third option: I am a temporary link that takes part in a vast network of human interactions that long preceded me and is more than likely to outlast me considerably.

More significant, that network has a lot of ability of creating meaningful purpose.

Well I would place this option as the one where 'we are just a temporary formation of matter' and not a third option. And as I also said, one can find meaning and purpose in that. but that I personally would see things in a more nihilistic way than if I were a believer that we were more than matter.

 

[LuisDantas]

Well I would place this option as the one where 'we are just a temporary formation of matter' and not a third option.

Fair enough, if that is how you perceive it.

Still, if some (many?) people see sufficient meaning in those relationships and possibilities, I am not sure why they would be wrong.

And as I also said, one can find meaning and purpose in that. but that I personally would see things in a more nihilistic way than if I were a believer that we were more than matter.

We are more than matter. Of course, you will see meaning where you will. I can't claim to have the means to convince you otherwise, either.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

There is a common question: Where do atheists get their morals from? I think it deserves more attention than it receives, but this is not ny main question.

Whenever I take an atheistic turn of mind it is automatically nihilistic. This is because I believe in objectivity and the answers I receive from most atheists rely on relativity and subjective meaning, which doesn't work for me because this, in essence, still means the meaning is made-up, which still imo leads to nihilism.

Thus my question:
So does, or can, atheism lead logically to nihilism?

I'm defining atheism as lack of belief in God or Gods, this is all.

Not necessarily. It really depends on the individual.

There. You can have the thread closed now

 

[निताइ dasa]

Thinking about this...It may be possible to derive an argument which can show that the belief in the non-existence of a God (defined as a divine adjudicator who punishes/rewards moral actions) s may lead to no meaning (no objective system of value or end that would incline us to objectively act in one way over another). This argument is a synthesis of Kant's Proof for the Formula of Humanity ( absolute ends) and the Argument from reason. Just came up with the form, so please forgive me if it is a bit rough.

P1: If there is an objective reason for agents to perform an action, X, then performance of X will fulfill a desire, and non-performance of X will frustrate a desire (for all agents).
P2: It is not possible to universally fulfill or frustrate a desire for all agents if there does not exist an all-powerful adjudicator and judge who can frustrate/fufill these desire (AKA God).
P3: Such a being (God) does not exist

Conclusion 1: Therefore there is no objective reason to act in one way over another.

P1 (Conclusion 1) : There is no objective reason to act in one way over another.
P2: If there is no objective reason to act in one way over another, then there is no absolute end in itself (this is Kant's principle)
P3: If there is no absolute end in itself, then there exist no object of absolute value.
P4: If there exists no object of absolute value, then Nihilism is correct.

Conclusion 2: Nihilism is correct.

Therefore, it is shown how the non-existence of God (as a divine and all-powerful adjuticator of moral laws) leads to Nihilism being correct.

(just drew a truth tree, and the argument is valid).

 

[निताइ dasa]

Also, just want comment that for meaning to be inherent does not mean that meaning must exist independently of an observer. One can define meaning as a property of the consciousness an oberserver, and since the subject exists, that meaning can also be seen to exist (inherently). A wise man once said:

"Objectivity begins when the subject (self) becomes the object of thought."

 

[jonathan180iq]

Man... People get really touchy about stuff on a debate forum...

Anyway...

Whenever I take an atheistic turn of mind it is automatically nihilistic. This is because I believe in objectivity and the answers I receive from most atheists rely on relativity and subjective meaning, which doesn't work for me because this, in essence, still means the meaning is made-up, which still imo leads to nihilism.

Thus my question:
So does, or can, atheism lead logically to nihilism?

I'm defining atheism as lack of belief in God or Gods, this is all.

In an earlier post, you said that even in your faith you lean towards nihilism. Doesn't that kind of refute everything you're saying here? The source of your nihilistic leanings is you, not atheism, or theism, or anything else.

Think about it.

But to directly answer your question, of course atheism CAN lead to nihilism. But, as you've pointed out, so can faith... so can anything at all.

The level of meaning that we derive from anything is entirely made up, if you want to look at it that way. Perspective is everything. I've gained an enormous amount of meaning in my life from my atheistic worldview which informs me that there is no afterlife and that these last few years that I have left of existence are literally all that there is...

I can't fall back on promises of a golden hotel in the clouds and eternal praise and worship services to help me ease the suffering caused by my bad behavior. I can't pretend like I have no obligation to make things better now, because things will be better "on the other side". My atheism gives me a mandate to enrich my life and the lives of those around me because this is all we got. So I'm a full on atheist that has no problem finding deep meaning in the precious sanctity of every moment. Once a moment is over, it's gone forever. I honestly don't see how can there be a better motivator than that.

Created meaning is subjective. I'm seeking objectivity.

You're going to be searching for a long long time.

 

[LuisDantas]

Nihilism is a result of the lack of narrative/mythology surrounding existence, and especially a lack of shared narrative/mythology.

There is no reason that such a narrative has to be theistic, but theistic narratives seem to be the most successful if we look at history impartially.

.. by a certain understanding of "theistic", "succesful", and "impartially", anyway.

 

[Rival]

If nihilism is being defined as rejecting any inherent meaning to life, then I (and perhaps innumerable other people) am a nihilist even though I am satisfied my life has all the meaning I wish it to have. Interesting take on "nihilism". Quite academic.

Is this not the definition of nihilism? No inherent meaning?

 

[George-ananda]

I am a nihilist.

How can you be both a nihilist and a Christian?