Does belief in God prevent people from killing?

[camanintx]

gee....

we are going in circles in here. but yet no one has explained why instant salvation for children is evil.

is eternal life with no hunger and thirst evil? i think this question is worthy of a new thread...

Wouldn't you first have to prove that those doing the "saving" are right?

 

[Hema]

People harm and kill each other because they see others as different from themselves. Differences are only with the temporary physical body. The real Self or Spirit is the same in everyone. When we realize this, we will know that we are all brothers and sisters in Spirit. The same "Self" in me is the same "Self" in everyone. :yes:

 

[Autodidact]

tsk tsk tsk! if i may borrow one the GADFLY's lines.

"you attack my person because you cannot destroy the logic of my answer".

Citing scripture is attacking your person?
You attacked Catholics for having "idols" in their churches. I pointed out to you that your Bible prohibits making any image of anything, such as is common in Protestant Churches. That makes your position hypocritical. And I see that you have no defense for it.

Eternal life with no hunger and thirst as the reason for God taking the lives of children in canaan during Joshua's time destroys your accussation that my God is Evil.

O.K. then, as I said, I suppose you have no problem with both you and any children you might have being killed then? Cuz I know you're in a hurry to get to that eternal life without hunger or thirst. btw, does everyone get that E.L. w/o H. or T., or are there any qualifications for it?

AND YOU CANNOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO DESTROY IT. HENCE YOU ATTACK MY PERSON INSTEAD.

Give me a break. You haven't responded to any of my arguments.

What do you call a genocidal baby-murderer? I tell you what, let's not be judgmental about it. In your world view, killing babies and committing genocide is a good thing. O.K., let's agree to disagree about that, and just acknowledge that whatever your value judgment is, you advocate genocide and infanticide as a natural consequence of your fundamentalist Christianity. I would like to draw this to the attention of any readers who may be considering this particular religious belief system.

that does not speak well of your person!!

I know, it's just awful to disparage genocide and infanticide as if they were bad things; I understand. I'll try to respect your religious beliefs, however barbaric and cruel they may seem to me.

 

[Autodidact]

People harm and kill each other because they see others as different from themselves. Differences are only with the temporary physical body. The real Self or Spirit is the same in everyone. When we realize this, we will know that we are all brothers and sisters in Spirit. The same "Self" in me is the same "Self" in everyone. :yes:

thank you Hema, I agree completely. Failure to realize this leads to kinds of atrocities described in the OT, and that continue to this day all over the world.

 

[Father Heathen]

gee....

we are going in circles in here. but yet no one has explained why instant salvation for children is evil.

is eternal life with no hunger and thirst evil? i think this question is worthy of a new thread...

By your argument, Christians should be fervently pro-abortion. Why not kill all children? But seriously, just because someone might believe in postmortem hokey hocus pocus is never justification for the brutal murder of innocent children. I think it's just a thin pretense for blood lust, or some sick fantasy.

 

[Autodidact]

I have to agree with uss to this extent: under his value system, and taking into account his assumptions and beliefs, it is perfectly logical to slaughter babies and commit genocide. He's right. That's just one of the many reasons to utterly reject his values, assumptions and beliefs.

 

[logician]

I have to agree with uss to this extent: under his value system, and taking into account his assumptions and beliefs, it is perfectly logical to slaughter babies and commit genocide. He's right. That's just one of the many reasons to utterly reject his values, assumptions and beliefs.

It's no different that Christian Scientists refusing medical treatment for their children.

 

[Autodidact]

It's no different that Christian Scientists refusing medical treatment for their children.

I don't know, they're kind of the same and kind of different, and both deeply screwed up results of living in a faith-based worldview.

 

[uss_bigd]

people are going off the topic already and diverting to personal attacks, that is just too bad.

IS THE PROMISE OF ETERNAL LIFE, WITH NO HUNGER AND THIRST EVIL? yes OR no?


on more thing, abortion, murder, genocide has a different premise to it. I AM REFERING TO PURPOSE HERE.

it is not logical to make conclusions without considering if they belong to the same premise.

The premise of God taking away lives THAT HE OWNS, was Good! and that is an argument no one has destroyed.

 

[Autodidact]

people are going off the topic already and diverting to personal attacks, that is just too bad.

IS THE PROMISE OF ETERNAL LIFE, WITH NO HUNGER AND THIRST EVIL? yes OR no?

Of course it's evil; all lies are evil.

on more thing, abortion, murder, genocide has a different premise to it. I AM REFERING TO PURPOSE HERE.

it is not logical to make conclusions without considering if they belong to the same premise.

The premise of God taking away lives THAT HE OWNS, was Good! and that is an argument no one has destroyed.

Sorry, you lost me again. Are you ever going to answer the questions I've asked you?

 

[uss_bigd]

Of course it's evil; all lies are evil.

assuming eternal life is a lie is another strory, and all lies being evil or not is also a different topic.

let me rephrase the quesion " is the IDEA of eternal life with no physical or emotional suffering evil "ON ITS OWN" ?

why or why not?


THE EXISTENCE or non existence OF ETERNAL LIFE IS A DIFFERENT STORY. HENCE I USED THE WORD "THE IDEA OF". if you wish to continue along this topic, kindly open a new thread for it. and since you are the more righteous person between the two of us i know you will be kind enough to heed my plead.

Sorry, you lost me again. Are you ever going to answer the questions I've asked you?

your question is irrelevant becasue you are changing my premise. and i did not lose you, you just refuse to acknowledge my premise because once you do, your done.
and you know it.

 

[Father Heathen]

Was the Jim Jones incident evil? They killed themselves and their children to get to some perceived paradise because they believed God ordered them to. Why not drink the cool-aide for yourself?

 

[uss_bigd]

I would like to re-direct this thread back to the topic.

and Belief in God does prevent people from killing.

after we acknowledge that we all have free will, and that if some psyco goes on a killing spree that is not on anyway God's fault.

we then have to acknoweldge that there are different God's.

some people worship money, fame. power, women, men, the creation more than the creator and the like. This beings said. the answer to this thread is, the belief in the correct God will prevent people from killing.

which God then USS_BIGD?

the creator, which made everything that was good.

 

[gnostic]

some people worship money, fame. power, women, men, the creation more than the creator and the like. This beings said. the answer to this thread is, the belief in the correct God will prevent people from killing.

which God then USS_BIGD?

the creator, which made everything that was good.

Samuel was a prophet during Saul's reign, and from God, Samuel ordered to slaughter every single things that the Amakelites owned, such as livestocks and animals. Women and children are not to be spared.

But this "generations" did nothing wrong to the Israelites. God was punishing misdeeds of previous generations, in Moses' time. It stated quite clearly in 1 Samuel 15:1-3

Samauel said to Saul, "I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over His people Israel. Therefore, listen to the Lord's command!
Thus said the Lord of Hosts: I am exacting penalty for what Amalek did to Israel, for the assault he made upon them on the road, on their way up from Egypt. <God's motive for annihilation> Now go, attack, and proscribe all that belongs to him. Spare no one, but kill alike men and women, infants and sucklings, oxen and sheep, camels and asses!"

Is this just, uss-bigd? This is the same creator you worshiped, who ordered slaughter of children.

Is this God, or this Creator, the same one who gave instruction to Saul, via Samuel, for this unwarranted slaughter?

If not, then explain.

Not only does belief in God don't prevent people from killing, there are orders for killing, even of children, coming directly from God. These orders have nothing to do with greed, women and territories, but from God's wishes and whim.

 

[Autodidact]

assuming eternal life is a lie is another strory, and all lies being evil or not is also a different topic.

let me rephrase the quesion " is the IDEA of eternal life with no physical or emotional suffering evil "ON ITS OWN" ?

I'm not sure I understand you. You mean, if I could live forever, and never be hungry or thirsty, would that be something that appeals to me? I don't know--I guess it would have advantages and disadvantages. I guess the idea of eternal life is so foreign, so different from anything I've experienced, that I don't know if it's a good idea or not.

THE EXISTENCE or non existence OF ETERNAL LIFE IS A DIFFERENT STORY. HENCE I USED THE WORD "THE IDEA OF". if you wish to continue along this topic, kindly open a new thread for it. and since you are the more righteous person between the two of us i know you will be kind enough to heed my plead.

Huh? Anyway, the problem is that the fact that it is not the case is what makes these killings in fact just evil. That is, the idea is hypothetical, while the murders are actual. And if you're actually dead, and someone else mistakenly thought you were going to get E.L. w/o H. or T., you're just really really unfortunate. And the individual just did something really evil. So it's quite relevant.

btw, you never let me know whether you would like to be killed now or in a few days, so as to get to the old E.L. w/o H. or T. A.S.A.P.

your question is irrelevant becasue you are changing my premise. and i did not lose you, you just refuse to acknowledge my premise because once you do, your done.
and you know it.

You mean, if what you believe is true, then...? Well, how is that relevant? I mean, if the moon is made of green cheese, then there might be a thriving dairy industry there. But it isn't.

And btw, I don't appreciate being called a liar. If I say I don't understand you, it's because of your tendency to degenerate into near-gibberish, not because I'm somehow afraid to acknowledge your argument. On the contrary, kiddo, I've demolished smarter and more experienced Christians than you with one lobe tied behind my back.

 

[Autodidact]

I would like to re-direct this thread back to the topic.

and Belief in God does prevent people from killing.

It does? Really? Do you have some empirical evidence to support this? Like say, of convicted murderers, what percentage believe in God?

after we acknowledge that we all have free will, and that if some psyco goes on a killing spree that is not on anyway God's fault.

Of course not; there is no God. It often is, however, religion's fault.

we then have to acknoweldge that there are different God's.

No, there are no Gods. There are beliefs in different Gods.

some people worship money, fame. power, women, men, the creation more than the creator and the like. This beings said. the answer to this thread is, the belief in the correct God will prevent people from killing.

Really, so the problem is just figuring out the correct God. Must be the God of the Buddhists, as I believe they have a significantly lower rate of killing non-believers than other religionists. Or maybe the God of the Amish or Quakers, I don't believe they much go in for this practice either.

which God then USS_BIGD?

the creator, which made everything that was good.

Are you trying to assert that Christians commit murder at a lower rate than non-Christians? Because if so, please present some data to support this assertion.

 

[Autodidact]

I think there's a contradiction in this argument. It's just that God orders these people to be killed, because they're evil. But it's not a problem to kill them, as they then get eternal life with the added attraction of the elimination of hunger and thirst. (but not, apparently, itching or boredom?) But if they're wicked, then don't they also miss out on the old E.L., w/ or w/o hunger and thirst?

 

[uss_bigd]

Samuel was a prophet during Saul's reign, and from God, Samuel ordered to slaughter every single things that the Amakelites owned, such as livestocks and animals. Women and children are not to be spared.

But this "generations" did nothing wrong to the Israelites. God was punishing misdeeds of previous generations, in Moses' time. It stated quite clearly in 1 Samuel 15:1-3


Is this just, uss-bigd? This is the same creator you worshiped, who ordered slaughter of children.

Is this God, or this Creator, the same one who gave instruction to Saul, via Samuel, for this unwarranted slaughter?

If not, then explain.

we are going in circles here.

This is discussion will continue to go in circles until we agree on a premise.

your premise is God is Evil. I will then counter and state the reason as to why God did what he did in the old testament, and prove that the reason was Good. he is the creator, he owns life. why question that?

with tha i destroyed your premise already. God is not Evil, he is Good. he had good intentions and he owns life.

now, how will you destroy my premise that these things was done by someone who had superior intelligence than you? that God owned life. and he pusnised those who did not obey.

here's what i think. you have a problem with rules. and you CHOSE to see God as evil in so that you dont have to follow any rules but the ones you make for your self.

how can a God who commands to love your wife as your own body be evil? if he is, what is his evil reason for this command?

Look, face it. all you will do is focus on the fact that he ordered people to be killed. he owned life. he was the one who gave it. and you are uncomfortable with the fact that there is a God. because its slap on your face that you cannot make your own rules.

and you'd very much desire to make your own.

 

[gnostic]

we are going in circles here.

This is discussion will continue to go in circles until we agree on a premise.

Look, mate. I have only just asked their question. Others may have asked you, but I haven't. And the answer you given is "no answer" so far. Most of these answers you have given is not only unsatisfactory, but evasive.

You claim to know, but you often answered with "you answer my question, then I will answer yours." - can hardly be considered an answer. This is simply being rude.

with tha i destroyed your premise already. God is not Evil, he is Good. he had good intentions and he owns life.

Actually this answer of yours or statement is evasive. Nothing more.

And you have completely ignored what it stated in the bible, where God ordered genocide, not for the errors that they made in Saul's time, but in past errors of other generations done in Moses' time. Punishing the people for the sins of the forefather is never just. It certainly not merciful or compassionate.

You quote biblical verses, whenever it suit you, to support your answer, and I have done the same, but so far the rest of your reply fail to refute either my view.

And if you have read my reply properly, you will find that I didn't say God is "evil". I said that believing in God don't prevent people from killing, and I have stated that God will give order to slaughter people, and I have quoted that verse from Samuel to support this claim.

What answer did you give me. You gave me this -

your premise is God is Evil. I will then counter and state the reason as to why God did what he did in the old testament, and prove that the reason was Good. he is the creator, he owns life. why question that?

You gave no reason.

with tha i destroyed your premise already. God is not Evil, he is Good. he had good intentions and he owns life.

You still haven't given me a reason.

For someone who supposed to be English instructor, you have many errors with grammar and spelling, and you dodge questions, like a politician, with unrelated conclusions or comments without explanation, and bring your question of your own, to distract a person, without ever answering directly.

I think you can do better than this, but now I believe that you refused to try. If you can't reply openly and honesty then what chance do I have in believing your bible...or you?

 

[Autodidact]

we are going in circles here.

This is discussion will continue to go in circles until we agree on a premise.

your premise is God is Evil.

I don't believe anyone claimed that as a premise. That would be rather a conclusion, which, of course, is the opposite of a premise.

I will then counter and state the reason as to why God did what he did in the old testament, and prove that the reason was Good. he is the creator, he owns life. why question that?

Go for it. Please show why ordering soldiers to slaughter toddlers and infants is good. I can't wait.

with tha i destroyed your premise already. God is not Evil, he is Good. he had good intentions and he owns life.

Asserting is not demonstrating. Now, again, why is ordering soldiers to slaughter children moral? Is it moral if I do it, or only God?

Do you have any children? (I find that getting Christians to see things from the other person's point of view, while difficult, is often worthwhile.)

now, how will you destroy my premise that these things was done by someone who had superior intelligence than you? that God owned life. and he pusnised those who did not obey.

What you need to show is that something that would be immoral if I did it, (even under your primitive myth system) is moral when God does it.

here's what i think. you have a problem with rules. and you CHOSE to see God as evil in so that you dont have to follow any rules but the ones you make for your self.

And on what do you base this conclusion? Maybe the poster loves rules. He may write rules, for all you know.

how can a God who commands to love your wife as your own body be evil? if he is, what is his evil reason for this command?

How can God who commands his soldiers to murder innocent babies be good? If he is, what is His good reason for this command?

Look, face it. all you will do is focus on the fact that he ordered people to be killed.

Yeah. I don't know about you, but I find genocide really irritating.

he owned life. he was the one who gave it.

Prove it.

and you are uncomfortable with the fact that there is a God. because its slap on your face that you cannot make your own rules.

On the contrary, my problem with the idea of God is not that it makes me uncomfortable, but that it seems not to be true. And, bte, your transparent amateur diagnosis of other people's thinking is arrogant and annoying. How about you focus on the argument instead?

a

nd you'd very much desire to make your own.

Again, would you like me to offer a psychological diagnosis of someone who feels the need to invent invisible but powerful friends, or shall we focus on the argument itself? Otherwise, perhaps you should change your username to Ad Hominem.