Does believing, thinking or feeling something is true actually make it true?

[McBell]

Please tell me you're using that term loosely.

No where near as loosely as the terms 'gender', 'woman', 'man'....

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

My answer is that I don't feel like a man, I am a man because I have xy chromosomes. How is a man supposed to feel to feel like a man?

What do you feel like, then? I'm pretty sure that for at least the first dozen or so years of your life, you had no idea what chromosomes you had -- yet I'm willing to be that you had an identity that felt natural to you. How could that be, if you didn't know about your chromosomes?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Ha no, but most people can reasonably conclude based on their anatomy.

Yes, that has a subjective element as per reasonably. That is the point this debate, it is subjective.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Your first attempt at a premise in the first paragraph is inadequate. You missed a step. It should have read this way
A man has XY chromosomes
I have XY chromosomes
Therefore I am a man.
Do you understand the difference between what you wrote and what I wrote?

What you have as #2 must be #1. Nobody cares what chromosomes you have . It must first be established who has XY chromosomes. Men have XY chromosomes. IF you have XY chromosomes then and only then are you a man. I not sure why you're using that if you don't know how it works.

What makes the bold one sound?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That's correct. I could identify as a kumquat but im not biologically a kumquat just because I identify as one. Now replace the word kumquat with woman. Could you call yourself a woman? Sure. Could you ask people to call you a woman? Sure. Treat you like a woman? Sure. Are you actually a woman because of any of those things? No.

Yes, you don't understand when you are subjective.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

It has nothing to do with belief. As has been stated previously in this thread, it is evidence based.

Beliefs can be evidence based.

Are you seriously expecting me to give you a comprehensive list of all behaviors and expressions associated with women? I don’t think I will. It’s an exercise not relevant to the discussion.

Ok, but it is relevant.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

What do you feel like, then? I'm pretty sure that for at least the first dozen or so years of your life, you had no idea what chromosomes you had -- yet I'm willing to be that you had an identity that felt natural to you. How could that be, if you didn't know about your chromosomes?

I feel like I feel I still don't get what how I am supposed to feel "like a man". What feelings am I supposed to have to feel like a man or identify with being a man? I am a man and I just feel like I feel it does not determine if I am a man or not. Adults that knew I was a male told me I was male, and they were right.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Yes, that has a subjective element as per reasonably. That is the point this debate, it is subjective.

I objectively have a penis, it is not subjective.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Beliefs can be evidence based.

At that point, they are no longer ‘beliefs.’

 

[SalixIncendium]

I objectively have a penis, it is not subjective.

Congratulation.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I objectively have a penis, it is not subjective.

Yeah, but that doesn't objectively make you a man.

 

[Kathryn]

Can we just be honest and say that for the vast majority of people - the VAST majority - their physical aspects line up with their gender?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Can we just be honest and say that for the vast majority of people - the VAST majority - their physical aspects line up with their gender?

Yeah and so what.
Let me explain to you the problem with that. Nothing else follows from that as for how we ought to behave.
I.e. their physical aspects line up with their gender, therefore ....
Nothing follows as per therefore as for a normative rule.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

At that point, they are no longer ‘beliefs.’

We will disagree, we have a different definition of what a belief is.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Yeah, but that doesn't objectively make you a man.

No, not these days, but my xy chromosomes do. What makes someone a man?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Yeah and so what.
Let me explain to you the problem with that. Nothing else follows from that as for how we ought to behave.
I.e. their physical aspects line up with their gender, therefore ....
Nothing follows as per therefore as for a normative rule.

How does someone know what gender they are?

 

[Kathryn]

Yeah and so what.
Let me explain to you the problem with that. Nothing else follows from that as for how we ought to behave.
I.e. their physical aspects line up with their gender, therefore ....
Nothing follows as per therefore as for a normative rule.

Oh well, I treat everyone as I would want to be treated so there's that.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No, not these days, but my xy chromosomes do. What makes someone a man?

No, the status of that is in XY is a man, is not objective. It is a subjective cultural construct.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

How does someone know what gender they are?

They don't know it in an objective sense. They subjectively think/feel/state so.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Oh well, I treat everyone as I would want to be treated so there's that.

Well, even that has limited.
Because you might be happy in one way for which that would make me unhappy and so in reverse.
In other words neither of us are an objective standard for treatment.