Does believing, thinking or feeling something is true actually make it true?

[Ignatius A]

Because it is not a simple question. Not sure why you are unable to see that, except that you are wrongly conflating two different things: sex and gender.

Sex refers to a set of biological attributes in humans and animals. It is primarily associated with physical and physiological features including chromosomes, gene expression, hormone levels and function, and reproductive/sexual anatomy. Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed.​

What is gender? What is sex? - CIHR​

Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people. It influences how people perceive themselves and each other, how they act and interact, and the distribution of power and resources in society. Gender identity is not confined to a binary (girl/woman, boy/man) nor is it static; it exists along a continuum and can change over time. There is considerable diversity in how individuals and groups understand, experience and express gender through the roles they take on, the expectations placed on them, relations with others and the complex ways that gender is institutionalized in society.​

I see the claim but that's not the same as the claim is true. If you need born a male how does one reach the conclusion, though belief, thought and feeling that they are woman?

 

[Nakosis]

There are no objective true or false. There are only different subjective standards. And that is neither true nor false. It is just one way to understand the world.
Learn to treat true and truth as God. Ideas some people believe in, but you don't have to believe in them to have a life.

Then how can you claim my standard for truth is not true?

 

[Ignatius A]

You have to learn the difference between biological sex and that there is more than male and female. When you have learned that you have to learn that sex is not the same as gender.

Your post is unclear. There are more than two sexes and I've been told there are likely as many genders as there are people. Is that correct?

 

[Alien826]

I'm wondering if a lot of this is simply a transitional thing. We humans like things to be simple, so take time to get used to ideas that are not.

Once a person either "gay" or "straight" and that was easy to understand. (For a male) he either desired sex with men or women. Then concepts like bi-sexuality came along and the idea of a gradient that we all fitted on somewhere. After a while we (mostly) got used to that idea and we don't see much discussion about it.

Now we have this "gender" thing to come to terms with, and that's new and takes a bit of mental work to understand. Hopefully it will pass.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Your post is unclear. There are more than two sexes and I've been told there are likely as many genders as there are people. Is that correct?

Yes, the one concept is biological and the other is cultural.

 

[Ignatius A]

The problem here is that you are seeking a singular answer when there is not one.

A man standing in front of a train as it speeds toward him will hear the train's horn a step higher in pitch then a man riding on that train will hear that same horn. And a man standing behind the train as it is moving away will hear that same horn a step lower in pitch than the man on the train, and two steps lower than the man in front of the train. So there is no singular answer regarding the pitch of the train's horn, because the pitch differs relative to the trains movement and the position of the listener.

The sexual identity of a human being can be determined via a number of different factors. And each of those factors may determine their own unique conclusion. Genitalia is a common means of determining gender, but it is not the only means, and other means are now becoming more commonplace. Even to the point of usurping genitalia as the main determining factor. So we will likely get different answers from different people when asked about a specific person's gender depending on which factors they hold to be the determinant factor. So we're going to need to get used to the idea that there is no singular answer to this question anymore.

Agreed but they should albe able.tk.agree that a horn is actually blowing. No?

Maybe you're right but the other means of determining gender, that you say are commonplace are based on what. How does one determine they are (fill in the blank)? How does determine what they are without knowledge of what that thing is? If I said I feel like I am a Neptunian would that be true? Do you think it would be true?

 

[Ignatius A]

I'm wondering if a lot of this is simply a transitional thing. We humans like things to be simple, so take time to get used to ideas that are not.

Once a person either "gay" or "straight" and that was easy to understand. (For a male) he either desired sex with men or women. Then concepts like bi-sexuality came along and the idea of a gradient that we all fitted on somewhere. After a while we (mostly) got used to that idea and we don't see much discussion about it.

Now we have this "gender" thing to come to terms with, and that's new and takes a bit of mental work to understand. Hopefully it will pass.

Interesting take. I wonder, you wouldn't suggest that every and any idea that humans could conjure up we should "come to terms with", would you?

 

[Ignatius A]

Yes, the one concept is biological and the other is cultural.

Great. First, how many sexes are there?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Great. First, how many sexes are there?

That depends on how you define a sex. I am serious. Depend on if you use just chromosones, or include other factors in different combinations including even differences in psychology and cognition for a broad cluster of different behaviours of male and female to the point that we are all variants of aspects of being male and female in different combinaitions and degrees.

 

[Ignatius A]

That depends on how you define a sex. I am serious. Depend on if you use just chromosones, or include other factors in different combinations including even differences in psychology and cognition for a broad cluster of different behaviours of male and female to the point that we are all variants of aspects of being male and female in different combinaitions and degrees.

If the number of sexes is determined by the definition, why did you mention only male and female?

 

[Sand Dancer]

In recent discussions about gender identity it was said that gender identity is validated by what the person believes, thinks and feels. Fine. The follow question was then posted: Is someone with a penis who believes, thinks and feels that they are woman, actually a woman? The common response was, it's not a yes or no question. Is that true? If a person said they believe, think and feel that they are a frog mean they are actually a frog? Could we not say to that person you are an amphibian?

True transgenderism is a physical thing. The fetus' body and brain change at different times during gestation. All fetuses start out physically female, and sometimes anomalies happen. These folks who all of sudden wake up and think they are a different gender are rarely really transgender. Parents tend to see things starting when children are 2 or 3, i.e., when they start realizing what gender they are, and it doesn't stop there.

 

[Ignatius A]

True transgenderism is a physical thing. The fetus' body and brain change at different times during gestation. All fetuses start out physically female, and sometimes anomalies happen. These folks who all of sudden wake up and think they are a different gender are rarely really transgender. Parents tend to see things starting when children are 2 or 3, i.e., when they start realizing what gender they are, and it doesn't stop there.

Do you think someone with a penis who believes, thinks and feels that they are a woman is actually a woman?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

If the number of sexes is determined by the definition, why did you mention only male and female?

Because I am brought up in a culture where I was conditioned to think in only those terms. I am that old, that it is hard for me to not do it and requries I force myself not to react automaically and resort to only male or female.

 

[Ignatius A]

Because I am brought up in a culture where I was conditioned to think in only those terms. I am that old, that it is hard for me to not do it and requries I force myself not to react automaically and resort to only male or female.

But there are only two sexes. Even hard core transgender supporters recognize that and distinguish between sex and gender. They would say a male could be a man or a woman or any of the other identified genders and beyond based on their beliefs, thoughts and feelings.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

But there are only two sexes. Even hard core transgender supporters recognize that and distinguish between sex and gender. They would say a male could be a man or a woman or any of the other identified genders and beyond based on their beliefs, thoughts and feelings.

Yes, I understand what you are saying. But even as biology it is complicated, because I could show you a natural born woman, and you would say it is a woman and if then looked inside the body, it is a male in some sense.
So for a few individuals it is not that simple.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Do you think someone with a penis who believes, thinks and feels that they are a woman is actually a woman?

Again, the body and brain are different genders. It's easier to change the body than the brain. To really be truly transgender, there has to be a life time of evidence, not just a one time announcement. Whatever gender your brain is is what you are. Also sometimes there are chromosomal anomalies that cause the genitals to be ambiguous.

 

[Ignatius A]

Again, the body and brain are different genders. It's easier to change the body than the brain. To really be truly transgender, there has to be a life time of evidence, not just a one time announcement. Whatever gender your brain is is what you are. Also sometimes there are chromosomal anomalies that cause the genitals to be ambiguous.

So you think someone with a penis who believes, thinks and feels that they are a woman is actually a woman. Thanks.

 

[Ignatius A]

Yes, I understand what you are saying. But even as biology it is complicated, because I could show you a natural born woman, and you would say it is a woman and if then looked inside the body, it is a male in some sense.
So for a few individuals it is not that simple.

Right but anomalies don't negate the facts. If some number if humans are born with six fingers we do t consider them a different species. It also doesnt mean humans have six fingers. If they don't get an anomaly.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I see the claim but that's not the same as the claim is true. If you need born a male how does one reach the conclusion, though belief, thought and feeling that they are woman?

It's called a BRAIN. It is "WHO" (not WHAT) you are. It's also handy, from time to time, for thinking with.

There are other kinds of body dysphoria, you know. Anorexia causes people to see themselves as too fat, when in fact there isn't an ounce of fat on their bodies. They can even stand in the shower at the gym with other folks of normal body shape, and still see themselves as too fat compared to others.

So I'll ask you, how is it possible for someone to see themselves as too fat, when they are not fat at all -- in fact they're usually too thin?

 

[Sand Dancer]

So you think someone with a penis who believes, thinks and feels that they are a woman is actually a woman. Thanks.

It depends. Again, if it's evidenced since they were toddlers and continues to be evidenced through life, the person is probably a trans woman. It's very rare.