Does believing, thinking or feeling something is true actually make it true?

[mikkel_the_dane]

Right but anomalies don't negate the facts. If some number if humans are born with six fingers we do t consider them a different species. It also doesnt mean humans have six fingers. If they don't get an anomaly.

Well, it then wouldn't be a fact that all human have only five fingers. So it wouldn't be an anomoly but a variantion to have six fingers.

And even it is an anomaly, you use it as if it is a bad thing, roght?

 

[Ignatius A]

It's called a BRAIN. It is "WHO" (not WHAT) you are. It's also handy, from time to time, for thinking with.

There are other kinds of body dysphoria, you know. Anorexia causes people to see themselves as too fat, when in fact there isn't an ounce of fat on their bodies. They can even stand in the shower at the gym with other folks of normal body shape, and still see themselves as too fat compared to others.

So I'll ask you, how is it possible for someone to see themselves as too fat, when they are not fat at all -- in fact they're usually too thin?

Ok it's WHO you are. So how would anyone know that what they are believing, thinking and feeling about WHO they are is a woman?

The anorexia analogy is a good one. So you're saying then that if a 25 year old woman who is 5'5" tall and weights 98 lbs says she believes, thinks and feels that she is fat then then she actually is fat and should be put on a diet if she wants to lose weight?

 

[Ignatius A]

It depends. Again, if it's evidenced since they were toddlers and continues to be evidenced through life, the person is probably a trans woman. It's very rare.

But they've determined they're a woman based on what? How have they decided what they believe think and feel is a woman?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Ok it's WHO you are. So how would anyone know that what they are believing, thinking and feeling about WHO they are is a woman?

The anorexia analogy is a good one. So you're saying then that if a 25 year old woman who is 5'5" tall and weights 98 lbs says she believes, thinks and feels that she is fat then then she actually is fat and should be put on a diet if she wants to lose weight?

Not all versions of dysphoria are mental illness.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

But they've determined they're a woman based on what? How have they decided what they believe think and feel is a woman?

Because if I think and feel that my gender is a male as gender, then that is what it is.
So if you don't do it based on how you think and feel then how do you do it as you?

 

[Ignatius A]

Well, it then wouldn't be a fact that all human have only five fingers. So it wouldn't be an anomoly but a variantion to have six fingers.

And even it is an anomaly, you use it as if it is a bad thing, roght?

It's an anomaly not a variation

In never said it was a bad thing you did. I merely pointed out anaomlies dont negate the rule.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It's an anomaly not a variation

In never said it was a bad thing you did. I merely pointed out anaomlies dont negate the rule.

So you think and feel that - I merely pointed out anaomlies dont negate the rule.
But is it true?!! And what is it supposed to mean?

 

[Ignatius A]

Not all versions of dysphoria are mental illness.

Well if beliefs thoughts and feelings make things true then to decide in some instances it's valid but not I others, undercuts you're argument. It's amazing to me how easily people become selective about when their beliefs apply and when they don't.

 

[Ignatius A]

So you think and feel that - I merely pointed out anaomlies dont negate the rule.
But is it true?!! And what is it supposed to mean?

It is true

 

[Alien826]

Interesting take. I wonder, you wouldn't suggest that every and any idea that humans could conjure up we should "come to terms with", would you?

"Should". A flexible word. These things come and sometimes survive and sometimes not. For years I've known that some people want to be a different sex from what their bodies suggest. I came across it with a work colleague back in the 1970s. I've always seen it as something that is personal to those involved, generally harmless to those not involved and not really my business. Then I discovered that a section of the religious community was discussing it as if it was the latest threat to the well being of us all. It took me a while to discover that it was the latest political "hate" thing, designed to stir up bad feelings towards a section of the community for political gain. I strongly suspect that the actual "trans" folk would dearly love to fade into the background again and just be left alone.

We'll see.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Well if beliefs thoughts and feelings make things true then to decide in some instances it's valid but not I others, undercuts you're argument. It's amazing to me how easily people become selective about when their beliefs apply and when they don't.

Well, we end in philosophy if we have to take this one to its bitter end.

But let me explain my position. I am a high functioning crazy person. I.e. I know on a good day when a part of me is crazy, but not all of me is crazy.
The problem starts with what is true about that and how I ought to cope with that.
And for that your idea of truth as always independent of thoughts and feelings is false, because that is not how reality works. In fact to believe that is in a sense abnormal.

Now answer these questions:
Is reality objective?
Is reality subjective?
Is those 2 both too simple and it is a bit more complex what truth and reality is?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It is true

That is a freefloating claim and you have given no evidence for how you know it is true and what it is supposed to mean?

 

[Ignatius A]

"Should". A flexible word. These things come and sometimes survive and sometimes not. For years I've known that some people want to be a different sex from what their bodies suggest. I came across it with a work colleague back in the 1970s. I've always seen it as something that is personal to those involved, generally harmless to those not involved and not really my business. Then I discovered that a section of the religious community was discussing it as if it was the latest threat to the well being of us all. It took me a while to discover that it was the latest political "hate" thing, designed to stir up bad feelings towards a section of the community for political gain. I strongly suspect that the actual "trans" folk would dearly love to fade into the background again and just be left alone.

We'll see.

Yes it is but when it's applied isn't. Not every idea is worth coming to terms with but the selection process for which ones should seems sketchy

 

[Ignatius A]

Well, we end in philosophy if we have to take this one to its bitter end.

But let me explain my position. I am a high functioning crazy person. I.e. I know on a good day when a part of me is crazy, but not all of me is crazy.
The problem starts with what is true about that and how I ought to cope with that.
And for that your idea of truth as always independent of thoughts and feelings is false, because that is not how reality works. In fact to believe that is in a sense abnormal.

Now answer these questions:
Is reality objective?
Is reality subjective?
Is those 2 both too simple and it is a bit more complex what truth and reality is?

Yes.
It can be
I don't think truth and reality are as complex as people would like them to be.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Ok it's WHO you are. So how would anyone know that what they are believing, thinking and feeling about WHO they are is a woman?

The anorexia analogy is a good one. So you're saying then that if a 25 year old woman who is 5'5" tall and weights 98 lbs says she believes, thinks and feels that she is fat then then she actually is fat and should be put on a diet if she wants to lose weight?

Is being a man or a woman (as opposed to being the male or female sex) only about what's between your legs, or is it more? Is it mannerisms, attitudes, modes of dress, choice of activies and interests, and a whole lot more?

What makes you "feel like a man?" Do you have to reach down when I ask the question to make sure that "what makes you feel like a man" is still there? When you are doing "masculine-oriented" activies with your male friends, are you concentrating on yourself and them as personalities, or are you paying attention to their genitalia?

I ask again: exactly what is it, at every moment of your life, that makes you feel assuredly that you are a man?

 

[Ignatius A]

That is a freefloating claim and you have given no evidence for how you know it is true and what it is supposed to mean?

I believe, think and feel that is true therefore it's true, correct?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I ask again: exactly what is it, at every moment of your life, that makes you feel assuredly that you are a man?

And when you've answered that, I'd like to propose a little thought experiment. What if a mad scientist captured you, and transplanted your brain into a female body -- what would you feel like then? Surely, because now you've got all the female parts, you must think you'd feel like a nice, feminine girl looking for a hunky boyfriend, no?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes.
It can be
I don't think truth and reality are as complex as people would like them to be.

Yeah, that is the problem. You think that truth and reality is not complex. The problem is that it is not true and not allowed according to your standard, because it is based on how you think.
So you break your own rule, but demand that the rest of us live up to it. How is that for a double standard.

 

[Alien826]

Yes it is but when it's applied isn't. Not every idea is worth coming to terms with but the selection process for which ones should seems sketchy

Welcome to the human race. Not everything is clear and well defined. I tend to apply a test that involves the effects of the particular subject. Should Russia have invaded Ukraine? Absolutely not. Should people wear red hats? Who cares? Should we agonize over the exact meaning of "man" and "woman"? Your answer seems to be different from mine.

 

[PureX]

Agreed but they should able able to agree that a horn is actually blowing. No?

And we would agree that person "X" is a person. Even though we may not agree on their gender because we determine that using different criteria.

Maybe you're right but the other means of determining gender, that you say are commonplace are based on what. How does one determine they are (fill in the blank)?

Why do we have to make that determination? If we are person "X"s doctor, we might have to make that determination based on biology. If we are person "X"s psychologist we might have to make that determination based on how they feel. If we are person "X"s jailer we might have to make that decision based on their safety. If we are person "X"s lover we might have to make that determination based on personal attraction. Otherwise, why do we have to make that determination at all? Or, why not just take person "X" at their word?

How does determine what they are without knowledge of what that thing is? If I said I feel like I am a Neptunian would that be true? Do you think it would be true?

Why do I even need to judge? Especially if I have no idea what their claim even means?