Um... teapot... Pluto. 'Nuff said.
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Does God exist?
- Thread starter Autodidact
- Start date
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
No, as I said, I was waiting for you to tell us you would place the same regard for the result as I will. Otherwise it's a setup, no?
John D
Spiritsurfer
I assume this debate is about the existence of the God of the Bible.
It is after all always Him that people are trying to either ignore or to forget. I don't think the human mind (or soul or spirit) truly have a problem with the god concept. It is all about "that God"! We don't like the idea of being owned, being property.
We want to own and control - a god that can be manipulated into obeying my orders and wishes, now that is a useful God - in him/her I can believe in.
To truly believe in the Christian God, you have to believe in the authority of the Bible and if you accept that, you have to obey and live by it.
The only alternative is ignoring this God's existence. It won't help much, though. Because this God is a Seeker and a Hunter. If you are on His "list", He will find you and make Himself known to you. If He doesn't - don't worry about it, you still got all your philosophies!
It is after all always Him that people are trying to either ignore or to forget. I don't think the human mind (or soul or spirit) truly have a problem with the god concept. It is all about "that God"! We don't like the idea of being owned, being property.
We want to own and control - a god that can be manipulated into obeying my orders and wishes, now that is a useful God - in him/her I can believe in.
To truly believe in the Christian God, you have to believe in the authority of the Bible and if you accept that, you have to obey and live by it.
The only alternative is ignoring this God's existence. It won't help much, though. Because this God is a Seeker and a Hunter. If you are on His "list", He will find you and make Himself known to you. If He doesn't - don't worry about it, you still got all your philosophies!
How much regard are you going to place on the result? Are you just going to treat it as a single data point, or are you going to infer from it that God does not exist?
All that a single case of unanswered prayer tells you is that the premise "God answers all prayers 100% of the time in a way the praying person recognizes it" is false.
tomato1236
Ninja Master
Not a setup. I don't know how it's a setup. You don't even have to tell me the result. Again, it's not about me. You don't pray to tell someone else, "See, I told you so." Or to be told the same. It's none of my business how or when you pray. You asked how you can know if God is real. I told you. Do with it what you will.
I don't care how you explain away my spiritual experiences. They aren't any more about you than your prayers to God are about me. The things I'm sharing with you are personal and important to me. I hope you can respect that.
It's just about atheists trying to find new positive statements about "God" to trample.
dust1n
Zindīq
How many failed prayers does it take before I consider the evidence as empirical?
tomato1236
Ninja Master
tomato1236
Ninja Master
7,236. Let me know how it went when you get there.
dust1n
Zindīq
Atheists? Plural? How many people create one thread?
tomato1236
Ninja Master
Auto counts as 3 atheists.
dust1n
Zindīq
I already spent 2 years of my young life in such a wasted effort, I rather not go over the few hundred failed attempts.
dust1n
Zindīq
Unfair!
The_Evelyonian
Old-School Member
Hey, at least you count as 1. I only count as 0.5 ever since I said "god bless you" after someone sneezed...
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You'd be surprised.
Wotan
Active Member
Well that all very noble and "modern" and tolerant and all those goody things. Trouble is - it ain't so.
Millions nay, BILLIONS of believers in the various versions the Abhamic god are quite certain not only their favorite invisible father god-father exists but that the rest of us better at least ACT like we believed it does also. And they are busy as we speak trying to see to it that we DO.
TobyMizziMonash
Member
One's definition of God needs to be taken into account before one can even answer or debate such a question. God is a work with so many meanings to different people from different cultures. Obviously, certain religions have a very concrete definition of what God is, whilst other definitions are looser and more encompassing. I, for one, see God as being a force within us; something you might also call a soul. I think it is important to have faith in ourselves as a species. We can create positive change in the world and make a real difference, we do not need to rely on the any other external source. 'God' is a reflection of who we are.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
No, it's about whether anything that you might define as a God exists.
It's not about what I like or don't like. It's about reality.
Why would I? Is it true?
False. There are many alternatives, most of them involving not believing that this God exists
And you know this...how?
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Well, it depends. I'm trying to adopt tomato's methodology. If he assumes from a single data point that God exists, then he should also assume from a single data point that God does not. I'm trying to move away from special pleading for the purpose of the argument.
I actually think praying is a lousy way to figure out whether God exists, but tomato seems to put a lot of stock in it, so I'm trying to actually apply that methodology in a consistent way.
It could also be consistent with a hypothesis, and tend to support it. I find all the data is consistent with the hypothesis, "There is no God." I would predict that God would not speak and reveal Himself to a praying person, and I would be right, which would tend to support that hypothesis.
If God did answer my prayer, that would also not be dispositive, but could be a data point, a piece of evidence, that could favor the hypothesis of His existence.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
But don't you see, if God answers my prayer, God exists. If God doesn't answer my prayer, God still exists. You've drawn your conclusion in advance. Basically, it's dishonest. It's cheating. "Here, I'll show you that God exists. If God exists, this coin will come up heads. On the other hand, if it comes up tails, God still exists." Say what?
I respect that you've had important spiritual experiences. Now let's see how you respect other people's important spiritual experiences. If someone has a personal revelation from Krishna, does that persuade you that Krishna is real? What about the person who hears voices coming through his walls telling him that he is Jesus reborn--does that persuade you that he is in fact Jesus reborn? What about Sun Yung Moon's spiritual experiences--do you find them equally persuasive? Or are they just personal experiences, with no application to anyone but the person experiencing them?
I'm not explaining them away, tomato, I'm just explaining them. They're as real as any memory you have--in your mind.
When someone tells you that they see a being, or hear voices, but only they hear them, do you consider the being real?
It would be helpful and polite if you would answer my questions. Thank you.
Did you pray to Allah? I've asked you at least 3 times. Ignoring people's reasonable, polite questions is another form of cheating. It indicates that you find them too disturbing to your position.