Does Islam Need a Reformation?

[atpollard]

1) Homosexuality is scientifically proved to be as much of a natural trait as skin and eye color. Your assertion that it goes against mankind, whatever that is supposed to mean, is unfounded and incorrect.
2) Heterosexual sex is responsible for more cases of STDs than homosexual sex. By your logic, we should despise and forbid heterosexual sex as well. The fact that you don't oppose it is evidence that your beliefs stem from religious dogma and nothing more.
There is nothing wrong with natural sexual desires. Hatred and bigotry, on the other hand, are things that harm people and should be gotten rid of.

While I agree that those particular facts probably deserve a challenge, Darwinisticly speaking, homosexuality is a reproductive disadvantage and could be regarded as "unnatural" in that context.
Not a moral judgement, just a biological one.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

While I agree that those particular facts probably deserve a challenge, Darwinisticly speaking, homosexuality is a reproductive disadvantage and could be regarded as "unnatural" in that context.
Not a moral judgement, just a biological one.

No more than being short or having poor eye sight is unnatural.

 

[leibowde84]

The belief that homosexuals and apostates should be killed is said with a straight face, I think.

Ofcourse being sick is something proven someone may be a sick person spiritually or physically, nothing hard to prove. For example you may be diarrhea, nothing shame, but if you insist to stay as diarrhea and make dirty your panties, smell so bad and wonder around " I'm diarrhea and I'm proud of it" this is really shame and you should be treated.


Other than this, being homo is not something in your natural features and its not proven. There are great efforts to impose it as like something "normal", but its not.

Is something that is not "normal" bad? Because, most of the stuff that I enjoy is not considered "normal." I mean, my favorite band in the world is often considered "weird," but I think they are better for it. I think it's commendable to break free from the ordinary.

Also, what is the correlation between being a homosexual and being sick? I don't get it. It is a sexual orientation, so I fail to see how it is detrimental, as illnesses usually are.

 

[JoStories]

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somali-Dutch-American ex-Muslim who has been vilified as an Islamophobe by her opponents, has called on atheists to recognize that while all religions may have problems, not all religions are equally bad. As she explains in an excerpt of her new book Heretic:


Let me make my point in the simplest possible terms: Islam is not a religion of peace. For expressing the idea that Islamic violence is rooted not in social, economic, or political conditions—or even in theological error—but rather in the foundational texts of Islam itself, I have been denounced as a bigot and an “Islamophobe.” I have been silenced, shunned, and shamed. In effect, I have been deemed to be a heretic, not just by Muslims—for whom I am already an apostate—but by some Western liberals as well, whose multicultural sensibilities are offended by such “insensitive” pronouncements.

My uncompromising statements on this topic have incited such vehement denunciations that one would think I had committed an act of violence myself. For today, it seems, speaking the truth about Islam is a crime. “Hate speech” is the modern term for heresy. And in the present atmosphere, anything that makes Muslims feel uncomfortable is branded as “hate.”

In these pages, it is my intention to make many people—not only Muslims but also Western apologists for Islam—uncomfortable. I am not going to do this by drawing cartoons. Rather, I intend to challenge centuries of religious orthodoxy with ideas and arguments that I am certain will be denounced as heretical. My argument is for nothing less than a Muslim Reformation. Without fundamental alterations to some of Islam’s core concepts, I believe, we shall not solve the burning and increasingly global problem of political violence carried out in the name of religion. I intend to speak freely, in the hope that others will debate equally freely with me on what needs to change in Islamic doctrine, rather than seeking to stifle discussion.

Are you a partisan of Ali? Do you agree that there is a fundamental problem with Islam, and that Islam needs fundamental reform?

Absolutely, just as Christianity needed to stop the inquisition and killing people,they thought were witches, etc. they did stop that and the faith became much more agreeable to many.

 

[JoStories]

Islam doesnt need anything from apostates.

Personally, I find that a bit unfair. You have to admit the concensus of many people is very negative when it comes to your faith. I would imagine many would like it if you faith were less violent.

 

[JoStories]

You make me ashamed to be human.

I am terribly ashamed to admit this, but you are so incredibly correct niezsche. Mea culpa for saying that.

 

[JoStories]

Well i haven't watch the movie but my cousin said it was great. So i guess you're right on that point.



What about channels like Sky news ? Are you american ? Can you confirm this or not please, i don't really know that much about it :

It says :

"In America, it’s the Sharia law conspiracy theory, which holds that “alongside the use of violence is the strategy of stealth jihad, which aims at the infiltration of national institutions and the assertion of Muslim’s demands through the legal system.” It’s a conspiracy pushed by everyone from the Republican Party to Fox News, and is outlined indepth in Mark Steyn’s book American Alone."

What was more interresting form me in that article was more the millions given to people like Spencer, Geller, Shoebat and Ayan Hirsi.

Just so you know, there are very few educated people who give an ounce of credit to Fox News. Most call them faux news as that title is far more fitting. Their collective bias is almost to the point of infamy and just as laughable.

 

[JoStories]

I despise homosexuality because it goes against mankind and spread diseases. But i dont go around beating gays. Thats wrong. Some youth do that.

Really? I wonder then, why it is that 99% of disease, or more, comes of heterosexual relations or viruses, bacteria, fungi, etc. even aids is not a 'gay' disease and those that proporgate that nonsense are spreading just that, nonsense. Hiv and aids Are believed to have come from men and women eating monkeys, a common thing in Africa. And please explain why homosexuality 'goes against 'mankind''. It does, as gays do nothing to go against humankind.

 

[atpollard]

No more than being short or having poor eye sight is unnatural.

Being short, I would disagree with ... like hair color that is pretty neutral as a reproductive advantage/disadvantage.
Poor eyesight I would agree with to some extent ... it is hardly a reproductive advantage.
On the other hand, a blind creature has a better chance of successfully groping its way to reproduction than two males (or two females) do.
Unless Darwinism has changed, reproductive advantage is how it measures 'right and wrong'.

Darwinism isn't the end-all, be-all of life, so don't read more into my statements than I intended.
Natural implies 'of nature' and homosexuality has some 'natural' disadvantages.

With respect to 'learned' or 'innate' ... I honestly do not know.
I would be surprised if one answer fit EVERY case, so I suspect that the truth might be a little of both.
However, I would have to disagree with the premise that no one is born with an innate attraction for the same gender.
I simply know of too many homosexuals that come from environments where siblings prefer the opposite gender to seriously entertain that it is 100% 'learned' behavior.

Back to the original topic, condemnation of homosexuality is not really a trait that sets Islam apart from other religions as particularly needing reform.
Christianity and Judaism both condemn the act in their scriptures.
Public executions are a more troubling aspect of any religious condemnation of homosexuality.
That is something that could use reform.

Personally, I have a hard time imagining a God who can't stand up for himself ... who might need ME to meet out HIS justice.

 

[JoStories]

What is this guy ... 5 years old?! Gay-jokes ... this guy needs a reality check.

And ought to grow up a bit. And even perhaps reread his qu'ran. Not to mention the rules about racist and bigoted posts. As a member of the bisexual community, I find his post disgusting.

 

[JoStories]

Ofcourse being sick is something proven someone may be a sick person spiritually or physically, nothing hard to prove. For example you may be diarrhea, nothing shame, but if you insist to stay as diarrhea and make dirty your panties, smell so bad and wonder around " I'm diarrhea and I'm proud of it" this is really shame and you should be treated.


Other than this, being homo is not something in your natural features and its not proven. There are great efforts to impose it as like something "normal", but its not.

::".........THUD".............. And btw, use of racist terms is not allowed here and h*mo IS a bigoted term.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Being short, I would disagree with ... like hair color that is pretty neutral as a reproductive advantage/disadvantage.
Poor eyesight I would agree with to some extent ... it is hardly a reproductive advantage.
On the other hand, a blind creature has a better chance of successfully groping its way to reproduction than two males (or two females) do.
Unless Darwinism has changed, reproductive advantage is how it measures 'right and wrong'.

Darwinism isn't the end-all, be-all of life, so don't read more into my statements than I intended.
Natural implies 'of nature' and homosexuality has some 'natural' disadvantages.

With respect to 'learned' or 'innate' ... I honestly do not know.
I would be surprised if one answer fit EVERY case, so I suspect that the truth might be a little of both.
However, I would have to disagree with the premise that no one is born with an innate attraction for the same gender.
I simply know of too many homosexuals that come from environments where siblings prefer the opposite gender to seriously entertain that it is 100% 'learned' behavior.

Back to the original topic, condemnation of homosexuality is not really a trait that sets Islam apart from other religions as particularly needing reform.
Christianity and Judaism both condemn the act in their scriptures.
Public executions are a more troubling aspect of any religious condemnation of homosexuality.
That is something that could use reform.

Personally, I have a hard time imagining a God who can't stand up for himself ... who might need ME to meet out HIS justice.

Actually there is some advantages to being homosexual. Usually women who have homosexual brothers tend to be more fertile and homosexual brothers to fertile women have historically helped raise the children since he wouldn't be having any of his own. So the genetic portion that can cause male homosexuality is just a byproduct of another gene that can cause enhanced fertility in women of the same littler so to speak.

I don't think I mentioned hair color.

In terms of learned or innate it has been pretty unanimous that it is innate rather than learned since all attempts to "teach" heterosexuality to homosexuals has failed. Likewise there is no way to really turn strait individuals gay. There are ways to coerce either side into acts of homo or hetero sexual activity but that does not actually change their sexual preference. Though sexual preference itself seems to be fluid and changing throughout one's life and environment to some degree. There probably are not any men or women on the planet that are either totally hetero or totally homo.

 

[gsa]

Actually there is some advantages to being homosexual. Usually women who have homosexual brothers tend to be more fertile and homosexual brothers to fertile women have historically helped raise the children since he wouldn't be having any of his own. So the genetic portion that can cause male homosexuality is just a byproduct of another gene that can cause enhanced fertility in women of the same littler so to speak.

I don't think I mentioned hair color.

In terms of learned or innate it has been pretty unanimous that it is innate rather than learned since all attempts to "teach" heterosexuality to homosexuals has failed. Likewise there is no way to really turn strait individuals gay. There are ways to coerce either side into acts of homo or hetero sexual activity but that does not actually change their sexual preference. Though sexual preference itself seems to be fluid and changing throughout one's life and environment to some degree. There probably are not any men or women on the planet that are either totally hetero or totally homo.

Getting a little off topic, but the fluidity of sexuality is also different based on gender. There are differences of opinion as to whether this is primarily cultural or biological.

Interestingly, what I would call "opportunistic homosexuality" is probably more widespread in Islamic societies, given the intense gender segregation.

 

[NoX]

::".........THUD".............. And btw, use of racist terms is not allowed here and h*mo IS a bigoted term.

Why would something such "natural" is understood as an insult by people ? Its just the acronym of homosexuality. Why people dont got it as an insult when someone says "hetero", but its an insult when you say "homo" ?

Do you know why, because its not something "normal" and homo persons or their defenders are so prone to petulance on this topic, because even themselves do not believe its "normal" and they are aware of their mistake, repressed guilt.

Also atheist people defends homo people not because of its scientific validity, just because of to be at the opposite side of religions. So if religions would say the sun rises from the east, all atheists would do their best to prove "actually the sun rises from the west."

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Getting a little off topic, but the fluidity of sexuality is also different based on gender. There are differences of opinion as to whether this is primarily cultural or biological.

Interestingly, what I would call "opportunistic homosexuality" is probably more widespread in Islamic societies, given the intense gender segregation.

This is possible but as of right now there is no way to obtain accurate sociological surveys in these areas.

 

[gsa]

Why would something such "natural" is understood as an insult by people ? Its just the acronym of homosexuality. Why people dont got it as an insult when someone says "hetero", but its an insult when you say "homo" ?

Do you know why, because its not something "normal" and homo persons or their defenders are so prone to petulance on this topic, because even themselves do not believe its "normal" and they are aware of their mistake, repressed guilt.

Also atheist people defends homo people not because of its scientific validity, just because of to be at the opposite side of religions. So if religions would say the sun rises from the east, all atheists would do their best to prove "actually the sun rises from the west."

By this logic, atheists would be proponents of everything religion opposes, which is clearly not the case.

But to steer the topic back, the murderous rage of Islamists when it comes to LGBT people is another clear indicator that the religion needs an enlightenment.

 

[Laika]

Voted "Yes". The longer I spend on RF, the clearer it is that Islam is not (at present) compatible with Liberal-Secular system.

 

[JoStories]

Why would something such "natural" is understood as an insult by people ? Its just the acronym of homosexuality. Why people dont got it as an insult when someone says "hetero", but its an insult when you say "homo" ?

Do you know why, because its not something "normal" and homo persons or their defenders are so prone to petulance on this topic, because even themselves do not believe its "normal" and they are aware of their mistake, repressed guilt.

Also atheist people defends homo people not because of its scientific validity, just because of to be at the opposite side of religions. So if religions would say the sun rises from the east, all atheists would do their best to prove "actually the sun rises from the west."

Because, like it or not, the word h*mo, similar to words such as d*ke or f*g are recognized terms that demean a group of people and are very seriously frowned upon here. Since you continue to use the term, I have reported you for a breach of the terms of use here. And for the record, I am not petulant, I am pissed off at the juvenile and ugly use of derogatory terms used to define a singl part of who and what I am. I am a very complex human being whose sexuality is a very small part of the who of me. You clump all atheists are defending anyone gay and that is a falsehood. Please try to understand that your words are harmful to those without thick skin, which is probably none of the gay community. But it doesnt diminish the fact that using such words are wrong in every country on earth.

 

[leibowde84]

Being short, I would disagree with ... like hair color that is pretty neutral as a reproductive advantage/disadvantage.
Poor eyesight I would agree with to some extent ... it is hardly a reproductive advantage.
On the other hand, a blind creature has a better chance of successfully groping its way to reproduction than two males (or two females) do.
Unless Darwinism has changed, reproductive advantage is how it measures 'right and wrong'.

Darwinism isn't the end-all, be-all of life, so don't read more into my statements than I intended.
Natural implies 'of nature' and homosexuality has some 'natural' disadvantages.

With respect to 'learned' or 'innate' ... I honestly do not know.
I would be surprised if one answer fit EVERY case, so I suspect that the truth might be a little of both.
However, I would have to disagree with the premise that no one is born with an innate attraction for the same gender.
I simply know of too many homosexuals that come from environments where siblings prefer the opposite gender to seriously entertain that it is 100% 'learned' behavior.

Back to the original topic, condemnation of homosexuality is not really a trait that sets Islam apart from other religions as particularly needing reform.
Christianity and Judaism both condemn the act in their scriptures.
Public executions are a more troubling aspect of any religious condemnation of homosexuality.
That is something that could use reform.

Personally, I have a hard time imagining a God who can't stand up for himself ... who might need ME to meet out HIS justice.

1. there is no "right" and "wrong" in the theory of evolution.
2. if a population grows too much, the in

Getting a little off topic, but the fluidity of sexuality is also different based on gender. There are differences of opinion as to whether this is primarily cultural or biological.

Interestingly, what I would call "opportunistic homosexuality" is probably more widespread in Islamic societies, given the intense gender segregation.

What would they expec

Why would something such "natural" is understood as an insult by people ? Its just the acronym of homosexuality. Why people dont got it as an insult when someone says "hetero", but its an insult when you say "homo" ?

Do you know why, because its not something "normal" and homo persons or their defenders are so prone to petulance on this topic, because even themselves do not believe its "normal" and they are aware of their mistake, repressed guilt.

Also atheist people defends homo people not because of its scientific validity, just because of to be at the opposite side of religions. So if religions would say the sun rises from the east, all atheists would do their best to prove "actually the sun rises from the west."

The fact that you actually believe that the reason for people standing up for homosexuals is because they don't like religion is close to the most irrational, unsubstantiated, ludicrous thing I have ever heard. Where do you live? How do you explain the plethora of religious people who support homosexual rights?

Aslo, can you please finally explain why you think that "normal" is better than "not normal?"

 

[leibowde84]

By this logic, atheists would be proponents of everything religion opposes, which is clearly not the case.

But to steer the topic back, the murderous rage of Islamists when it comes to LGBT people is another clear indicator that the religion needs an enlightenment.

I am really surprised by NOX's comments about homosexuals. I didn't think it was possible to still think this way these days.

It's so ironic that she is perfectly OK with insulting homosexuals with baseless accusations and claims without providing any kind of reliable objective support for these claims, but no one is aloud to insult Islam or Muslims in general. I mean, at least Islam is a choice.