Does Islam Need a Reformation?

[Maranatha]

The fundamentalist, literalist, hard right view of Islam is dangerous, .....and likewise those making sweeping generalisms of negativity about Islam are also dangerous. The 'extreme' sides of a debate or cause can rarely influence swift, clean, blood-less change.

As The Buddha, Jesus and other wise men have suggested, the middle way, is the natural and effective way. In other words, I'm not a great fan of Islam in all honesty (but I also know and acknowledge many peaceful, compassionate good Muslim people), but equally I'm not a fan of this woman, or her language, or elevation to celebrity status. I'd go as far as to say that she strikes me as a little narcissistic.

It's interesting the point being made that the US is more conservative than Europe; as an explanation as to why the US has opened it's arms to this woman. I don't see this as the root cause at all - simply that the US is generally pro-Israel and anti-Islam, so a woman with views like this woman could go really far there ........... No doubt she'll be special guest on the stages of some American TV Evangelist Millionaire soon.

Then again, I guess to most American's; I'd be one of those wooly, liberal Quakers.

 

[atheist g]

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somali-Dutch-American ex-Muslim who has been vilified as an Islamophobe by her opponents, has called on atheists to recognize that while all religions may have problems, not all religions are equally bad. As she explains in an excerpt of her new book Heretic:


Let me make my point in the simplest possible terms: Islam is not a religion of peace. For expressing the idea that Islamic violence is rooted not in social, economic, or political conditions—or even in theological error—but rather in the foundational texts of Islam itself, I have been denounced as a bigot and an “Islamophobe.” I have been silenced, shunned, and shamed. In effect, I have been deemed to be a heretic, not just by Muslims—for whom I am already an apostate—but by some Western liberals as well, whose multicultural sensibilities are offended by such “insensitive” pronouncements.

My uncompromising statements on this topic have incited such vehement denunciations that one would think I had committed an act of violence myself. For today, it seems, speaking the truth about Islam is a crime. “Hate speech” is the modern term for heresy. And in the present atmosphere, anything that makes Muslims feel uncomfortable is branded as “hate.”

In these pages, it is my intention to make many people—not only Muslims but also Western apologists for Islam—uncomfortable. I am not going to do this by drawing cartoons. Rather, I intend to challenge centuries of religious orthodoxy with ideas and arguments that I am certain will be denounced as heretical. My argument is for nothing less than a Muslim Reformation. Without fundamental alterations to some of Islam’s core concepts, I believe, we shall not solve the burning and increasingly global problem of political violence carried out in the name of religion. I intend to speak freely, in the hope that others will debate equally freely with me on what needs to change in Islamic doctrine, rather than seeking to stifle discussion.

Are you a partisan of Ali? Do you agree that there is a fundamental problem with Islam, and that Islam needs fundamental reform?

I completely agree. Before the Christian Reformation, Christianity was very violent with inquisi

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somali-Dutch-American ex-Muslim who has been vilified as an Islamophobe by her opponents, has called on atheists to recognize that while all religions may have problems, not all religions are equally bad. As she explains in an excerpt of her new book Heretic:


Let me make my point in the simplest possible terms: Islam is not a religion of peace. For expressing the idea that Islamic violence is rooted not in social, economic, or political conditions—or even in theological error—but rather in the foundational texts of Islam itself, I have been denounced as a bigot and an “Islamophobe.” I have been silenced, shunned, and shamed. In effect, I have been deemed to be a heretic, not just by Muslims—for whom I am already an apostate—but by some Western liberals as well, whose multicultural sensibilities are offended by such “insensitive” pronouncements.

My uncompromising statements on this topic have incited such vehement denunciations that one would think I had committed an act of violence myself. For today, it seems, speaking the truth about Islam is a crime. “Hate speech” is the modern term for heresy. And in the present atmosphere, anything that makes Muslims feel uncomfortable is branded as “hate.”

In these pages, it is my intention to make many people—not only Muslims but also Western apologists for Islam—uncomfortable. I am not going to do this by drawing cartoons. Rather, I intend to challenge centuries of religious orthodoxy with ideas and arguments that I am certain will be denounced as heretical. My argument is for nothing less than a Muslim Reformation. Without fundamental alterations to some of Islam’s core concepts, I believe, we shall not solve the burning and increasingly global problem of political violence carried out in the name of religion. I intend to speak freely, in the hope that others will debate equally freely with me on what needs to change in Islamic doctrine, rather than seeking to stifle discussion.

Are you a partisan of Ali? Do you agree that there is a fundamental problem with Islam, and that Islam needs fundamental reform?

Islam doesn't need a reformation. It needs an Enlightenment era.

In Christianity the Reformation led to the Enlightenment. By inhibiting the power of the Catholic Church, and through the Protestant emphasis on literacy (gotta read that Bible), differing views were given room and the Age of Enlightenment began. Not sure you can have an Enlightenment without a Reformation. As Islam stands now I don't think its possible just like it would not have been possible under the overwhelming power of the Catholic Church.

 

[Augustus]

The main reason the Sufis lost dominance was that the main leaders of what became the Salafi branch of Islam, the one that threatens us today, discovered the profitability of the pursuit of plunder, across the Middle East, North Africa, and into Europe, in Spain, France, Italy, and as far as Austria. They may have plundered in the name of Islam, but it was always about the plunder, the wealth and the slaves.

This is seriously anachronistic.

 

[Moishe3rd]

This IS the Muslim Reformation. Now, and for the last 100 years.

2,000 years ago was the Jewish Reformation where they killed each other for about 300 years over whose Flavor Of G-d was the best. They ended up wiping out the 2nd Temple; the Kingdom of Israel; and about 3 million Jews. It was the Great Jewish Roman Sectarian Civil War.

600 years ago was the Christian Reformation where they killed each other for about 300 years over whose Flavor Of G-d was the best. They ended up destroying nearly every kingdom in Europe; wiping out most of Northern Europe, and massacring between 30 and 50 million Christian Europeans. It was the Great Christian European Sectarian Civil War.

Today's Great Muslim Arab Sectarian Civil War has already killed in excess of 50 million Arabs and/or Muslims over the last hundred years; tyrannized or destabilized every Arab/ Muslim country on Earth and, based on past "Reformations," will eventually kill a few billion inhabitants of the planet and leave large swathes of land uninhabitable.

 

[asier9]

Islam began with reformation and all extremist groups are already products of reformations. Every time Islam falters in continuously spreading it causes a soul searching in the Islamic world which leads some group or another back to its founding principles. Islam began in protestation and this has been a constant aspect of it as a religious/political system since its foundation--as this is also quality of the Arab mindset: Me against my brother, me and my brother against our father, me and my family against my clan, me and my clan against our tribe, me and my tribe against every other. Is ISIL not a product of reformation?

 

[Darius_M]

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somali-Dutch-American ex-Muslim who has been vilified as an Islamophobe by her opponents, has called on atheists to recognize that while all religions may have problems, not all religions are equally bad. As she explains in an excerpt of her new book Heretic:


Let me make my point in the simplest possible terms: Islam is not a religion of peace. For expressing the idea that Islamic violence is rooted not in social, economic, or political conditions—or even in theological error—but rather in the foundational texts of Islam itself, I have been denounced as a bigot and an “Islamophobe.” I have been silenced, shunned, and shamed. In effect, I have been deemed to be a heretic, not just by Muslims—for whom I am already an apostate—but by some Western liberals as well, whose multicultural sensibilities are offended by such “insensitive” pronouncements.

My uncompromising statements on this topic have incited such vehement denunciations that one would think I had committed an act of violence myself. For today, it seems, speaking the truth about Islam is a crime. “Hate speech” is the modern term for heresy. And in the present atmosphere, anything that makes Muslims feel uncomfortable is branded as “hate.”

In these pages, it is my intention to make many people—not only Muslims but also Western apologists for Islam—uncomfortable. I am not going to do this by drawing cartoons. Rather, I intend to challenge centuries of religious orthodoxy with ideas and arguments that I am certain will be denounced as heretical. My argument is for nothing less than a Muslim Reformation. Without fundamental alterations to some of Islam’s core concepts, I believe, we shall not solve the burning and increasingly global problem of political violence carried out in the name of religion. I intend to speak freely, in the hope that others will debate equally freely with me on what needs to change in Islamic doctrine, rather than seeking to stifle discussion.

Are you a partisan of Ali? Do you agree that there is a fundamental problem with Islam, and that Islam needs fundamental reform?

Reformation is the heart and not the solution to the problem in any religion. What did reformation do to Christianity but to fracture it into a thousand pieces. Call it what you may, but you cannot make an old tree that has had its day bear anything other than bitter fruits. You will not be able to make my great grandmother a virgin (though Christian ecclesiastics with the help of Persian, Jewish, Roman and Pagan traditions have done.) The fact that there are many sects in all religions bears witness to the fatal and dangerous attempts at "reforms". Even if you get rid of all clerics, priests, monks and the likes, you will not be able to cleanse today's religions from the dross of traditions that have attached to them like a fungus. Give it up! We are in need of an all NEW Faith

 

[tmThEMaN]

Islam needs a complete shake down and to be rebuilt again and simplified. Muslims throughout history have been deforming Islam. So Mislims are Islam's biggest enemy. I've read from few examples of those who think they are good Muslims in this thread.

There's something non-Muslims need to keep in mind. Most of the Muslims you might hear stupid statements from, have grown in a society controlled by so-called Imams who are only concerned about being popular and gain followers. We also have a lot of baggage from the dark ages of illiteracy during the Ottoman Empire and rule of Muslim dictators. Followed by self-serving governments that didn't care about education and considered ignorance good for their mind control.

Islam just like any faith should be about the relationship between a man/woman and their creator. It should not be about others. That's the enlightenment that's needed but will take ages. Until then, please ignore idiots and don't fuel their stupidity with attention.

I'm a Muslim living among Muslims in the middle east, though many around me wouldn't like my views on Islam. It took me time to form my own personal understanding of what I believe is the essence of Islam. But the environment around us is not helpful and people like Ayaan are countering any effort we make to spread a new look at Islam within Muslims. I think she's an opportunist looking for publicity like the Imams that are using her as an example of what liberal ideas lead to.

Peace on all.

 

[miodrag]

1) Homosexuality is scientifically proved to be as much of a natural trait as skin and eye color.

I would be thankful if you could provide that proof to me. Last thing I heard about homosexuality is that from the perspective of psychology, it is a disorder, or whatever term was used.

 

[miodrag]

I voted: Other.

The world needs Islam to be reformed. Islam needs a miracle.

 

[Pineblossom]

Islam needs a new theology. At the moment its theology is locked up in the 11th century and has not moved since. The first rumblings of Islam's inability to negotiate social change is demonstrated by its failure to adequately respond to the fall of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WW I. Its been in hibernation ever since.

Rather than trying develop a more adequate theology, as has Judaism and Christianity, it has theologically stuck its head in the sand and pretended the rest of the world does not exist. The result is a build up of frustration which eventually spills over into various acts of rebellion with devastating results both for Islam and the rest of the world.

The tragic fact is that it is apparent that Islam has no intention of looking for new ways of addressing matters of faith other than simply repeating past practices and theologies in the hope that by doing so something will change.

The reason Islam refuses to change is that it refuses to look seriously at the Qur'an and negotiate the various contradictions and social/cultural factors that may been applicable at some time in the past but which are theologically and socially destructive in the 21st century. But for any Muslim to suggest as much would immediately define them as an apostate worthy of censure, even death.

As a result Islam is caught, trapped, within its own hermeneutic circle unable to explicate itself from the past. Shouting peace, peace, in the face of the obvious is not doing much to play down fears that are all too evident. It is sad, deeply saddening, to witness the lack of courage Muslims display towards their own religion. The very reason Miuslims call Islam a religion of peace confirms their acknowledgement that Islam needs a new theology but at the same time Muslims choose not to change the deadening theologies of the past.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Islam needs a new theology. At the moment its theology is locked up in the 11th century and has not moved since.

I think you're being a tad generous by saying the theology is as recent as the 11th Century.

 

[Pineblossom]

I would be thankful if you could provide that proof to me. Last thing I heard about homosexuality is that from the perspective of psychology, it is a disorder, or whatever term was used.

Point taken. I would like to add that when I need to go to the toilet I do not do so in the middle of the street, like they did not all that long ago.

 

[StopS]

Odd that we should have this very topic on the Jinn & Tonic Show only a few minutes ago.

If anyone would like to develop or present some ideas, please join us next Sunday on a Youtube/Google hangout on the topic of reform in Islam.

My personal take is that yes, Islam desperately requires a fundamental reform or it will quickly die out, the way I observe it happening around me in Saudi or the UAE.
You can't remove the figure-head Muhammad, just as you can't remove Jesus - even if neither really existed.
You could include Muhammad in the Koran as a character with real-life implications, as support and comforter, not as warlord and pirate.
I would love to see some ideas and the consequences played out in more detail and what Islam would be like as a modern ideology without any political ambitions.

 

[Pineblossom]

I think you're being a tad generous by saying the theology is as recent as the 11th Century.

I like generosity. But you could be right. I think al Ghazali was the last of the theologians who effectively closed down the debate.

 

[gsa]

I would be thankful if you could provide that proof to me. Last thing I heard about homosexuality is that from the perspective of psychology, it is a disorder, or whatever term was used.

The last thing you heard was in the early part of the past century.

 

[gsa]

Reformation is the heart and not the solution to the problem in any religion. What did reformation do to Christianity but to fracture it into a thousand pieces. Call it what you may, but you cannot make an old tree that has had its day bear anything other than bitter fruits. You will not be able to make my great grandmother a virgin (though Christian ecclesiastics with the help of Persian, Jewish, Roman and Pagan traditions have done.) The fact that there are many sects in all religions bears witness to the fatal and dangerous attempts at "reforms". Even if you get rid of all clerics, priests, monks and the likes, you will not be able to cleanse today's religions from the dross of traditions that have attached to them like a fungus. Give it up! We are in need of an all NEW Faith

Weakening religions by promoting sectarianism has some long term benefits, though; division gives space for secularism and privatization of religious beliefs.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

In these pages, it is my intention to make many people—not only Muslims but also Western apologists for Islam—uncomfortable. I am not going to do this by drawing cartoons. Rather, I intend to challenge centuries of religious orthodoxy with ideas and arguments that I am certain will be denounced as heretical. My argument is for nothing less than a Muslim Reformation. Without fundamental alterations to some of Islam’s core concepts, I believe, we shall not solve the burning and increasingly global problem of political violence carried out in the name of religion. I intend to speak freely, in the hope that others will debate equally freely with me on what needs to change in Islamic doctrine, rather than seeking to stifle discussion.

Are you a partisan of Ali? Do you agree that there is a fundamental problem with Islam, and that Islam needs fundamental reform?

There are no atheist intellectuals who acknowledge free will is real. So it is meaningless when Hirsi Ali says to talk 'freely".

All ideological issues are largely resolved by establishing freedom of opinion. But prior to establishing freedom of opinion one needs to establish as fact that freedom is real, and that an opinion can only be arrived at by choosing it. One needs to establish creationist philosophy that people have emotions, with which they choose, and that the existence of the emotions is a matter of opinion. Only proper, subjective, acknowledgements of each other's emotions leads to peace.

I am quite convinced atheism is enflaming muslim extremist hostility, just like communism enflamed nazism. We muslims should not trust anybody who does not accept the fact that freedom is real in the social sphere, for the same reason that we should not trust nazi's and communists. Muslims should ask politicians and intellectuals if they accept the fact that freedom is real, and accept that the existence of human emotions is a matter of opinion, and then associate or disassociate with them accordingly.

The level of credibility of emotional depth of people in the West is very low as it is, leading to a perception of weakness of the West among muslims. What is needed is more people with emotional depth in politics and intellectual circles straightforwardly supporting freedom of opinion, and less politicians and intellectuals trying to be clever and complicating things with their coldhearted cleverness.

So there is no reform neccessary of Islam, but a creationist revival now and then is needed.

 

[evenpath]

Reform? Absolutely. What must precede this is an educated laity that is allowed to think and express critical and relevant viewpoints. Unfortunately this is not met with a great deal of enthusiasm by hard liners and a mostly unenlightened clerical body. In a word…education. That said, all religions must allow for creative adjustment in order to stay relevant and productive. Jewish reform temples come to mind as well as the christian era of enlightenment. One might even throw the current pope into the m ix in terms of shaking up the established form and function of the church.

 

[gsa]

There are no atheist intellectuals who acknowledge free will is real. So it is meaningless when Hirsi Ali says to talk 'freely".

All ideological issues are largely resolved by establishing freedom of opinion. But prior to establishing freedom of opinion one needs to establish as fact that freedom is real, and that an opinion can only be arrived at by choosing it. One needs to establish creationist philosophy that people have emotions, with which they choose, and that the existence of the emotions is a matter of opinion. Only proper, subjective, acknowledgements of each other's emotions leads to peace.

I am quite convinced atheism is enflaming muslim extremist hostility, just like communism enflamed nazism. We muslims should not trust anybody who does not accept the fact that freedom is real in the social sphere, for the same reason that we should not trust nazi's and communists. Muslims should ask politicians and intellectuals if they accept the fact that freedom is real, and accept that the existence of human emotions is a matter of opinion, and then associate or disassociate with them accordingly.

The level of credibility of emotional depth of people in the West is very low as it is, leading to a perception of weakness of the West among muslims. What is needed is more people with emotional depth in politics and intellectual circles straightforwardly supporting freedom of opinion, and less politicians and intellectuals trying to be clever and complicating things with their coldhearted cleverness.

So there is no reform neccessary of Islam, but a creationist revival now and then is needed.

I didn't understand or agree with most of what you wrote but I like the comparison you make, that Islamists are similar to Nazis.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Islam needs a new theology. At the moment its theology is locked up in the 11th century and has not moved since. The first rumblings of Islam's inability to negotiate social change is demonstrated by its failure to adequately respond to the fall of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WW I. Its been in hibernation ever since.

Rather than trying develop a more adequate theology, as has Judaism and Christianity, it has theologically stuck its head in the sand and pretended the rest of the world does not exist. The result is a build up of frustration which eventually spills over into various acts of rebellion with devastating results both for Islam and the rest of the world.

The tragic fact is that it is apparent that Islam has no intention of looking for new ways of addressing matters of faith other than simply repeating past practices and theologies in the hope that by doing so something will change.

The reason Islam refuses to change is that it refuses to look seriously at the Qur'an and negotiate the various contradictions and social/cultural factors that may been applicable at some time in the past but which are theologically and socially destructive in the 21st century. But for any Muslim to suggest as much would immediately define them as an apostate worthy of censure, even death.

As a result Islam is caught, trapped, within its own hermeneutic circle unable to explicate itself from the past. Shouting peace, peace, in the face of the obvious is not doing much to play down fears that are all too evident. It is sad, deeply saddening, to witness the lack of courage Muslims display towards their own religion. The very reason Miuslims call Islam a religion of peace confirms their acknowledgement that Islam needs a new theology but at the same time Muslims choose not to change the deadening theologies of the past.

Islam is not a religion of peace
It is a religion of terrorism and fighting
There are more than 96 word fight and fight and fight and struggling
In the Koran
And not in the Koran ten words about peace