Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[Rick O'Shez]

It was not a guess.

How on earth can you make that claim? How on earth do you know what these mysterious "mystics" were thinking in ancient times, or where they got their ideas from, or whether it was basically all a result of some herbal stimulation...whatever. If you're going to make claims like that you need to back them up. It's just looks to me like the latest in a succession of bland and unsupportable assertions.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

fractal

Fractal...I knew that word would come up sooner or later! Please explain exactly what you think "fractal" means, and how it applies to this discussion.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Most ancient cultures had a creation myth, that's not at all surprising when you think about it. Some were far more crude than others though, there's even one which says everything was created in a week, I mean how daft is that?!

haha.... okay. But the ''day'' is not a twenty four hour period. It is ''light'' or the ''warm hours''. That could mean anything. Turns out it means an awaful long time, and is due to inflation, without which, we could not live our lives as we do, because everything would move too fast. Physicist Schroeder explains this well.

And again the vague reference to "mystics" and "sages". It would be good if you started being a bit more specific about who these people actually were. How about some names and details, how about some references to back up these vague assertions?

It does not matter who they were.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It does not matter who they were.

If you are going to keep using them to prop up your views then it matters very much.

 

[Robert.Evans]

How on earth can you make that claim? How on earth do you know what these mysterious "mystics" were thinking in ancient times, or where they got their ideas from, or whether it was basically all a result of some herbal stimulation...whatever. If you're going to make claims like that you need to back them up. It's just looks to me like the latest in a succession of bland and unsupportable assertions.

It is spiritually discernment. The one that needs to back things up is you, saying that it is a ''guess''

 

[Rick O'Shez]

That could mean anything.

Exactly.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It is spiritually discernment

Rubbish, it's just wishful thinking and guess work. I asked you to define "spiritual discernment" before and you couldn't, it's a cop out.

But by all means have a go now. What exactly do you mean by "spiritual discernment" and how have you personally experienced it?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Fractal...I knew that word would come up sooner or later! Please explain exactly what you think "fractal" means, and how it applies to this discussion.

Everything is an evolving-consciousness. This is fractal in action. Though getting smaller, it is interesting that when you get nearer to it, it becomes the same size.
Everything follows what has already been. That is what we are doing now.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Rubbish, it's just wishful thinking and guess work. I asked you to define "spiritual discernment" before and you couldn't, it's a cop out.

But by all means have a go now. What exactly do you mean by "spiritual discernment" and how have you personally experienced it?

That just means you don't understand. I can't help you there. If it is not given you, it's not given you. That is not your fault. You mistake is to think no one else has it, and that if they do, you would see some physical evidence of it, another classic mistake of an atheist. It is a good argument to cling onto of course, as God is invisible, so you win every time. But unfortunately, you're wrong...haha

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Everything is an evolving-consciousness. This is fractal in action. Though getting smaller, it is interesting that when you get nearer to it, it becomes the same size.

"
Fractal actually refers to the same pattern being replicated at smaller and smaller scales. Please explain clearly how this relates to everything being an "evolving-consciousness" ( whatever that is supposed to mean! )

 

[Rick O'Shez]

If it is not given you, it's not given you.

What has not been given to me exactly? Have you had a vision, or divine inspiration, and if so what exactly was it like? If you can't be specific then it's just another unsubstantiated claim.

Again I ask, what exactly do you mean by "spiritual discernment" and how have you personally experienced it?

Or is it actually just a set of beliefs with nothing to back them up?

 

[Midnight Rain]

Does the universe need intelligence to order it? | Page 79 | ReligiousForums.com

The background to human existence can be thought of as the universe.

Alright. I get that physically but how does this translate to a spiritual discussion.

 

[metis]

and it helps to point the Proper Direction.

Such as not choking people upon arrest?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Just because you don't know does not mean no one else does

Of course, but the more we talk here the more it seems to be just a succession of unsupported beliefs and speculations. If somebody could come up with something even remotely convincing I would listen to it.

 

[Nakosis]

Or is it actually just a set of beliefs with nothing to back them up?

Many people I speak with believe they have had experiences to back up their beliefs. It is easier to accept these experiences exists if you've had some yourself.

You have to I think consider the mind/brain is very flexible. The mind fills in missing information in our perception. If you really belief and seek an experience enough I think the mind is quite capable of providing that experience.

For example when I meditate I can see a very bright light. I perceive it. Dark room with my eyes open I can still perceive it. Is it a real perception or is it something my mind creates and feeds to my consciousness? I don't know, it seems as real as any other perception to me.

So it not just a set of beliefs, it's beliefs and perceptions which support those beliefs. What we know of reality s based on our perceptions. You can ask people to question their perception but that is all they really have. If it was only a set of beliefs I think it would be a lot easier to get people to question them.

 

[YmirGF]

Of course, but the more we talk here the more it seems to be just a succession of unsupported beliefs and speculations. If somebody could come up with something even remotely convincing I would listen to it.

I think that is the most bizarre aspect of this whole conversation, Spiny. From what I am reading, it sounds like it is a members only club that is privy to some vantage point that those of us stuck in the pond scum are not aware of. Oddly, when asked for specifics all you get is vague double-talk that doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

Assumptions and suppositions are a dime a dozen. Again, it is the certainty that rings extremely hollow to me and the shrillness one encounters when one pushes back against this disingenuous narrative should only serve to underscore the probability that these are false assumptions about the nature of reality.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Is it a real perception or is it something my mind creates and feeds to my consciousness? I don't know, it seems as real as any other perception to me.

In a Buddhist meditative context we'd talk about this as a nimitta, it's a recognised stage of samadhi.

We were discussing meditative experiences earlier in the thread actually, but observing that it's easy to make assumptions about them which aren't necessarily valid.

I have asked people to describe the personal experiences which have led to their beliefs, but there seems to be a great deal of reluctance on that score, and I don't really understand why. That's why I question whether in some cases it is just a set of beliefs developed over a period of time, with very little to back it up - wishful thinking and speculation.

I'm not saying that people don't have spiritual experiences or meditative experiences, I've had them myself. The problem is that when people consistently refuse to talk about them, and just hide behind cliches and generalities, well, I begin to wonder.

 

[savagewind]

I think that is the more bizarre aspect of this whole conversation, Spiny. From what I am reading, it sounds like it is a members only club that is privy to some vantage point that those of us stuck in the pond scum are not aware of. Oddly, when asked for specifics all you get is vague double-talk that doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

Assumptions and suppositions are a dime a dozen. Again, it is the certainty that rings extremely hollow to me and the shrillness one encounters when one pushes back against this disingenuous narrative should only serve to underscore the probability that these are false assumptions about the nature of reality.

I don't think you should say "pond scum". From your point of view it won't work because pond scum is plant matter, not animal matter, which you are. From my point of view I would rather view you as Elven which if you have seen Lord of the Rings is a compliment. Your inability to see what we see doesn't make you lesser. Ask the the others. I am sure they won't agree to pond scum either as it is a plant.

 

[YmirGF]

Many people I speak with believe they have had experiences to back up their beliefs. It is easier to accept these experiences exists if you've had some yourself.

I've had enough of these kinds of experiences to satiate a small army. The point is, I've learned to not take my perception of those experiences literally. It is way to easy to simply assume that your perception IS correct and that you are looking at reality from an unfettered pristine standpoint. The main thing I've learned is that reality is like a well oiled marble. As soon as you think you have it tightly held in your grip, it pops up and the chase begins anew. After awhile one tends to be much more relaxed and the speculations abate. Perhaps its there that reality begins to emerge, but I'm not about to bet the farm on it at this point, LOL.

You have to I think consider the mind/brain is very flexible. The mind fills in missing information in our perception. If you really belief and seek an experience enough I think the mind is quite capable of providing that experience.

I agree. The inherent confirmation bias wiring, if you will, that exists in the mind of every reader will neatly paper over any flaws they perceive, going as far as giving one the illusion of "ultimate" and "absolute" reality.

For example when I meditate I can see a very bright light. I perceive it. Dark room with my eyes open I can still perceive it. Is it a real perception or is it something my mind creates and feeds to my consciousness? I don't know, it seems as real as any other perception to me.

Again, I like this. I often see the room around me when my eyes are closed. I see into the yard and forest around me and down to the dock a few miles away. I will NOT say that it is a real sight, however satisfying, as I know that my imagination is extremely powerful. (It is still a wonderful experience however.)

So it not just a set of beliefs, it's beliefs and perceptions which support those beliefs. What we know of reality s based on our perceptions. You can ask people to question their perception but that is all they really have. If it was only a set of beliefs I think it would be a lot easier to get people to question them.

Another aspect of this or another way of saying this is, based on my own experience, you will meet your expectations that will largely conform to your existing belief structures. And again, this applies even to realms of consciousness that seem "absolute" or "ultimate". If that is your working baseline, your experience will reinforce the existing belief structures... which helped create the experience, propelled into actuality by the emotional commitment to the whole ball of wax.

 

[YmirGF]

I don't think you should say "pond scum". From your point of view it won't work because pond scum is plant matter, not animal matter, which you are. From my point of view I would rather view you as Elven which if you have seen Lord of the Rings is a compliment. Your inability to see what we see doesn't make you lesser. Ask the the others. I am sure they won't agree to pond scum either as it is a plant.

Don't get me too wrong, Savagewind, I quite like your thinking. There is a sense of innocence in what you say that appeals to my emotions. You are a kind and joyful little sot and I like that. That aside, my direct quote was, "...those of us stuck in the pond scum..." I was creatively alluding to being in a state of illusion and thus stuck in the illusion. I hope this helps.