Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

[savagewind]

Don't get me too wrong, Savagewind, I quite like your thinking. There is a sense of innocence in what you say that appeals to my emotions. You are a kind and joyful little sot and I like that. That aside, my direct quote was, "...those of us stuck in the pond scum..." I was creatively alluding to being in a state of illusion and thus stuck in the illusion. I hope this helps.

Right! I must work on my reading skill. Thank you.

I thank you for correcting me. It was kind and kindness is from God becaused the Bible says so. To be stuck in pond scum a person must be extremely small. I think of scientific minds are bigger than life, not smaller.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

And again, this applies even to realms of consciousness that seem "absolute" or "ultimate". If that is your working baseline, your experience will reinforce the existing belief structures...

Very true. Likewise somebody with a belief in God will naturally assume that the spiritual experiences they have relate to God. But it is just an assumption, one of many.

 

[Nakosis]

I'm not saying that people don't have spiritual experiences or meditative experiences, I've had them myself. The problem is that when people consistently refuse to talk about them, and just hide behind cliches and generalities, well, I begin to wonder.

OIC, sorry.

I guess I also suspect for some it is just a set of beliefs.

I think most I've asked have been willing to share. For me it's just my experiences. I'm not demanding anyone else accept the reality of them.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I'm not demanding anyone else accept the reality of them.

I wouldn't either. The problem comes when people interpret such experiences in a particular way and then try to prove things or start making fact-like statements.

 

[Nakosis]

I've had enough of these kinds of experiences to satiate a small army. The point is, I've learned to not take my perception of those experiences literally. It is way to easy to simply assume that your perception IS correct and that you are looking at reality from an unfettered pristine standpoint. The main thing I've learned is that reality is like a well oiled marble. As soon as you think you have it tightly held in your grip, it pops up and the chase begins anew. After awhile one tends to be much more relaxed and the speculations abate. Perhaps its there that reality begins to emerge, but I'm not about to bet the farm on it at this point, LOL.

I've looked into various beliefs and have had experiences that could be taken as confirming those beliefs. Those beliefs and experiences where not really compatible. So yeah, I'm not betting the farm on any. However many of them seem to allow more control over whatever this reality is. So I'm mostly left questioning reality and discovering how much I can flex it.

 

[YmirGF]

I've looked into various beliefs and have had experiences that could be taken as confirming those beliefs. Those beliefs and experiences where not really compatible. So yeah, I'm not betting the farm on any. However many of them seem to allow more control over whatever this reality is. So I'm mostly left questioning reality and discovering how much I can flex it.

Pretty much. You touch on an interesting point in that "reality" is more putty-like or plasticine-like that we may expect.

 

[godnotgod]

Alright. I get that physically but how does this translate to a spiritual discussion.

'Physical' and 'spiritual' are just concepts, just as 'foreground' and 'background' are. They're all relative, and in the final view, a singular reality. Unconditioned consciousness is the same as 'spiritual/physical'. We are all having a spiritual/physical experience all the time, but do not realize it, due to our conditioned consciousness being captured by the foreground, just as that of the fish is captured by his foreground. But we take it further than the fish: we discriminate, and then superimpose our discrimination grid pattern onto the background, ie; 'the universe', seeing it as separate 'parts', ie 'atoms', changing all the time.

 

[savagewind]

But we take it further than the fish: we discriminate, and then superimpose our discrimination grid pattern onto the background, ie; 'the universe', seeing it as separate 'parts', ie 'atoms', changing all the time.

And if other people don't fit into the pattern too bad for them.

 

[godnotgod]

And if other people don't fit into the pattern too bad for them.

heh...heh...heh...and the rest is history...

 

[godnotgod]

As is shown in this logic the conclusion the painting is beautiful, is equally logically valid to the conclusion the painting is ugly.

Yes! And it is for this reason that the sage entertains no preferences.

 

[apophenia]

higher consciousness.

Yes, and we could easily have another long thread on what that means.

That's what the New Age gurus are about - Hire consciousness ! it's so much easier than owning your own ...

Someone here is using his intelligence to order us around ...

 

[Thief]

Exactly. And to be honest I get tired of people pretending they do know when it's patently clear that they don't. It's a house of cards.

Like I said before, beliefs are just beliefs, ten a penny, pretty worthless really. And the more people attach to them, the more their minds are closed and the less they actually see.

You appear to be making the assumption.....I cannot reason to a point of certainty.
I can....I do.
Therefore, I post as I believe.
Note my signature.

 

[Thief]

"
Fractal actually refers to the same pattern being replicated at smaller and smaller scales. Please explain clearly how this relates to everything being an "evolving-consciousness" ( whatever that is supposed to mean! )

It begins in the beginning....noting Genesis.....
and the a God able to say....I AM!

Someone had to be first.

 

[apophenia]

It begins in the beginning....noting Genesis.....
and the a God able to say....I AM!

also noting ... genes is

the first book, begins with its name

the word

gattaca....( i am ... in deep **** )

there is an urge behind the word

Someone had to be first.

the amoeba ?

where is the first point in a circle ?

clever dicks might say the centre

but there is nothing there

 

[apophenia]

all this hocus pocus

the power and the glory

the excruciating cleverness

nothing to do with the heart

trash

 

[apophenia]

Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

It appears that we do.

The Mossad, Interpol, No Such Agency ... ordering us

Do they know why they order us around ?

I don't think so. Not really.

The total wealth divided by the total population is elegant sufficiency. The three wealthiest Australians command equal wealth to the poorest 30,000.

So who is ordering our Intelligence around ?

It only takes knowledge of a few quirks of evolved behaviour of dogs and cattle for humans to order them around.

What is humanity's quirk ?

Who exploits it ?

Just a thought.

 

[apophenia]

Emergent property managers

 

[apophenia]

Oxfam: Combined wealth of the 85 richest people is equal to that of the poorest 3.5 billion - half the world's population (belfasttelegraph.co.uk)

 

[godnotgod]

[QUOTE="Spiny Norman, post: 4096493, member: 48981 The problem comes when people interpret such experiences in a particular way and then try to prove things or start making fact-like statements.[/QUOTE]

We know that delusion is certainty about something existing that is not there, so we can eliminate that first off. We see Zen students, for example, initially having delusional experiences (life-like hallucinations called 'makyo') all the time in the temples, and then later realizing their hallucinatory nature once they progress beyond that point under the guidance of their teacher.

But Is it possible to experience a certainty about Reality without being able to prove any of it? Was the Buddha's experience of Supreme Enlightenment one of certainty about the nature of Reality?

 

[godnotgod]

re: 'foreground' and 'background' of existence:

“Everything we see is always changing, always losing its balance. But the reason everything looks beautiful is because it is out of balance, but its background is always in perfect harmony. This is how everything actually exists; losing its balance against a background of perfect balance. So if you see things without realizing the background of perfect balance*, everything appears to be in the form of suffering. But if you understand the background of existence, you realize that suffering itself is how we live, and how we extend our life.”

excerpted from: 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind', by Shunryu Suzuki, founder and roshi, San Francisco Zen Center

* 'without realizing the background of perfect balance' is the state of being enlightened, but not realizing it, which is the state of consciousness of most of mankind, whose attention is driven by the three lower centers of consciousness: Power, Sensation, and Security, which are addictions. Only via the Fourth Level of Consciousness, that of Love, can these three Addictions be transformed into Preferences.