Egyptian lawyer sues Netflix over Queen Cleopatra

[Revoltingest]

So "sensitive snowflakes" isn't denigrating? Would you be okay with someone calling you that on the forums?



It is primarily due to the years of tension between Afrocentrists—who claim current Egyptians are descended from "invaders" or "colonialists" and have no historical connection to our history and nation—and scholars from Egypt and elsewhere who have responded to such claims with historical and genetic evidence demonstrating otherwise. There's a much deeper backdrop to this than just one show.

You'll notice that no other Netflix production has had this much visible opposition from Egyptians. As long as the production doesn't try to take sides in one of Egypt's longer-term tensions—the side of unevidenced and demonizing narratives—barely anyone will care.

I must consider how much is genuine concern over
history, & how much is racism against black Africans.
I lack info to argue over it.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I must consider how much is genuine concern over
history, & how much is racism against black Africans.
I lack info to argue over it.

There are many racists in Egypt who look down on black people. There are also many who refuse to be associated with Africans because of the false notion that being African is synonymous with being black (something they would hate to be, due to their racism).

This is from one of my posts in this thread:

And of course, there are some people who wish to be seen as white or have an inferiority complex and look down on Africans in addition to denying their African roots because of that, sometimes under the false assumption that being African is synonymous with being black (something they would hate to be, due to their racist worldview). You'll find people who say "We're Arabs, not Africans!" or "We're neither Arab nor African! We're Egyptian!" as if all of those were mutually exclusive categories. I definitely think some of that is due to attitudes influenced by white supremacism and Eurocentric thinking. A lot of people still retain such attitudes despite not even being white or European themselves.

However, the existence of some racists in no way delegitimizes the concerns over this specific show or implies that all of its critics are racist. One doesn't have to be a racist in order to criticize it.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I must consider how much is genuine concern over
history, & how much is racism against black Africans.
I lack info to argue over it.

By the way, I would suggest to everyone, myself included, to always remember not to call an entire nation something like "sensitive snowflakes" due to disagreeing with a subset thereof.

You didn't answer my question about whether you would be okay with someone calling you that on the forums.

 

[Revoltingest]

There are many racists here in Egypt look down on black people. There are also many who refuse to be associated with Africans because of the false notion that being African is synonymous with being black (something they would hate to be, due to their racism).

This is from one of my posts in this thread:



However, the existence of some racists in no way delegitimizes the concerns over this specific show or implies that all of its critics are racist. One doesn't have to be a racist in order to criticize it.

I don't base my suspicions on there mere existence of "some racists".
It appears to be more pervasive than that, & driving the criticism
of a mixed race actress playing Cleopatra in a US docudrama.

But this is speculation based upon observing their criticism of
the movie, knowledge of how docudramas function, & statements
from the show's makers.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

People who insist on historical accuracy are not necessarily racist. I certainly don't think the thugs described in a couple of articles I saw linked in this thread are comparable to Egyptian historians and scholars who object to what they perceive to be an inaccurate representation of one of their historical figures.

I've already stated my personal view on this whole controversy -- I don't care what color actors Netflix hires for their productions. It's what the actor brings to the role that interests me most. However, both those arguing on either side of this debate merit respect. I would certainly not insinuate that anyone is racist who believes that actors should look the part of whatever role they are playing.

Edited to add: I just wish to clarify regarding the "thugs" I referred to, regarding one of the linked articles I mentioned having been posted in this thread. (Yes, I actually sometimes read linked articles.) The thugs were the teenagers who surrounded two Sudanese sisters who were walking their children home from elementary school in a Cairo neighborhood, taunting them, calling them "slave" and other slurs, and trying to rip off the clothes of one of the women.

I did not find this (or the other linked article in this thread) pertinent to the discussion here. Racists and thuggish teenagers exist everywhere, and how they think and behave is not comparable to, or in any way indicative of, those who have strong opinions about characterizations in docudramas, for goodness sake.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I don't base my suspicions on there mere existence of "some racists".
It appears to be more pervasive than that, & driving the criticism
of a mixed race actress playing Cleopatra in a US docudrama.

There are significant and sound reasons for the criticism that don't have anything to do with racism. Assuming a uniform motive for all of the criticism oversimplifies the issue.

 

[Revoltingest]

By the way, I would suggest to everyone, myself included, to always remember not to call an entire nation something like "sensitive snowflakes" due to disagreeing with a subset thereof.

You want more precision.
I recommend being consistent with what you want from others.

You didn't answer my question about whether you would be okay with someone calling you that on the forums.

I don't recall the question.
What was it?

 

[Stevicus]

If there hadn't been Di Caprio and the love story with Katy Winslet...I guess not many people would have gone to the theaters to watch it...

I already knew how it would end, although so as to not spoil it for others:

Spoiler: Spoiler

The ship sinks.

 

[Debater Slayer]

You want more precision.
I recommend being consistent with what you want from others.

Or just no prejudiced statements about an entire population (something I indeed avoid, myself). Occasional imprecision is fine; those aren't.

I don't recall the question.
What was it?

There:

So "sensitive snowflakes" isn't denigrating? Would you be okay with someone calling you that on the forums?

 

[Revoltingest]

There are significant and sound reasons for the criticism that don't have anything to do with racism. Assuming a uniform motive for all of the criticism oversimplifies the issue.

Don't mis-represent my posts.
I didn't assume.
I've tried to convey considering & speculating about
why Egyptian reactions to a mixed race actor playing
Cleopatra are so fervent. It's good to consider things
that we aren't sure of.
Don't dismiss the possibility of racism driving objections.

 

[Stevicus]

So "sensitive snowflakes" isn't denigrating? Would you be okay with someone calling you that on the forums?



It is primarily due to the years of tension between Afrocentrists—who claim current Egyptians are descended from "invaders" or "colonialists" and have no historical connection to our history and nation—and scholars from Egypt and elsewhere who have responded to such claims with historical and genetic evidence demonstrating otherwise. There's a much deeper backdrop to this than just one show.

You'll notice that no other Netflix production has had this much visible opposition from Egyptians. As long as the production doesn't try to take sides in one of Egypt's longer-term tensions—the side of unevidenced and demonizing narratives—barely anyone will care.

I'm not sure about other aspects of the series, but in my rather limited study of the history, I wonder why Cleopatra would be viewed or portrayed as any kind of positive historical figure that anyone should be proud of. She was a tyrant and a pretty nasty piece of work, although her Roman lover, Marcus Antonius, was even worse.

 

[Estro Felino]

I already knew how it would end, although so as to not spoil it for others:

Spoiler: Spoiler

The ship sinks.

Well...I didn't go to the theater to see a ship sink...for sure..
But to see Leo...

 

[Debater Slayer]

Don't mis-represent my posts.
I didn't assume.
I've tried to convey considering & speculating about
why Egyptian reactions to a mixed race actor playing
Cleopatra are so fervent.

For some, that's because of the years of tension that Egypt has had with Afrocentrists. For others, it's because of a perception that foreign identity politics are being shoehorned into Egyptian history and heritage at the expense of historical accuracy. For a third subset, it's a combination of the two.

And then for a fourth subset, it's because of racism, sometimes mixed with a few genuine concerns (which they then use to promote or express their racism).

It's good to consider things
that we aren't sure of.
Don't dismiss the possibility of racism driving objections.

You seem to be either misunderstanding some of my points or skipping them. I didn't dismiss that possibility; I acknowledged it multiple times. What I said was that the motives for the criticism are not uniform—not everyone criticizing the show, even if fervently, is racist, and not everyone criticizing it is solely concerned about historical accuracy either. Motives vary.

 

[Revoltingest]

Or just no prejudiced statements about an entire population (something I indeed avoid, myself). Occasional imprecision is fine; those aren't.

Your avoidance isn't perfect yet.

There:

I wouldn't like it.
But my liking or not liking a label applied to me is irrelevant.
The point is that Egyptian sensitivity over a mixed race actress
appears to be unreasonably fervent. Hence my considering
motives in addition to historical accuracy.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Your avoidance isn't perfect yet.

The best we can all do is try our utmost. Do you do so in this thread?

I wouldn't like it.
But my liking or not liking a label applied to me is irrelevant.

It is relevant for the sake of consistency.

The point is that Egyptian sensitivity over a mixed race actress
appears to be unreasonably fervent. Hence my considering
motives in addition to historical accuracy.

Cool. Then you can consider all possible motives instead of just one of them.

I have elaborated on a few different motives in this thread, including racism.

 

[Revoltingest]

You seem to be either misunderstanding some of my points or skipping them.

Many posts are long, & have multiple points.
Addressing all isn't practical. So I skip some
parts when I judge them to be less important.
Usually, this avoids digression & walls of text.
And it saves me time.

 

[Revoltingest]

The best we can all do is try our utmost. Do you do so in this thread?

Within the limits of poetic license.

It is relevant for the sake of consistency.



Cool. Then you can consider all possible motives instead of just one of them.

I have elaborated on a few different motives in this thread, including racism.

I've nothing to add.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't base my suspicions on there mere existence of "some racists".
It appears to be more pervasive than that, & driving the criticism
of a mixed race actress playing Cleopatra in a US docudrama.

But this is speculation based upon observing their criticism of
the movie, knowledge of how docudramas function, & statements
from the show's makers.

It's like those bungholes who claim the Insular Celts (Ireland and Britian) are a lost Jewish tribe (there's also an African version). Plus a hypocrisy that demands accuracy when a character is black.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's like those bungholes who claim the Insular Celts (Ireland and Britian) are a lost Jewish tribe (there's also an African version). Plus a hypocrisy that demands accuracy when a character is black.

It seems you refer to something specific,
but I don't know what it is.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It seems you refer to something specific,
but I don't know what it is.

The whole idea thag Egyptians are black is like those who would say we're Jewish for our Celtic heritage, which according to thise believe this we actually have Jewish heritage and not Celtic.
Plus the hypocrisy of those who complain when a white person portrays a character who isn't white. Cleopatra wasn't black but rather a Greek Mediterranean white girl.