Ethical to breed animals for its only purpose to be eaten?

[Quoth The Raven]

Beans don't "produce" protein, Kreeden, they're composed of it.

Protein, in turn, is composed of amino acids. Humans use 20 different amino acids, 9 of which we must get directly from food. The other 11 we can assemble metabolically.

Different foods have different percentages of amino acids. Most foods don't have an optimum mix -- they may be low in one or another. This is a problem, however, only if you're living on only a single food. With a varied diet amino acid excesses and deficits balance each other out.

You're body can only use a certain amount of protein. Eating more will not automatically be incorporated into big muscles -- it just gets broken down. Protein breakdown, by the way, can have metabolically deleterious effects if your intake is high.

As far as meat vs vegetable sources, if you're looking for really concentrated sources put down your burger and load up on something like broccoli or asparagus -- both have more protein, calorie for calorie, than beef. This myth that plants are protein deficient is just that -- pure myth.

Brocolli is quite high in folic acid as well, which is why you should eat plenty of it during the first trimester of pregnancy.

 

[john313]

Beans don't "produce" protein, Kreeden, they're composed of it.

Protein, in turn, is composed of amino acids. Humans use 20 different amino acids, 9 of which we must get directly from food. The other 11 we can assemble metabolically.

Different foods have different percentages of amino acids. Most foods don't have an optimum mix -- they may be low in one or another. This is a problem, however, only if you're living on only a single food. With a varied diet amino acid excesses and deficits balance each other out.

so beans and rice together would make a complete protein with some amino acids from beans and some from rice? that make more sense. I was going to look it up, thanks for saving me the time .

 

[Bastet]

so beans and rice together would make a complete protein with some amino acids from beans and some from rice? that make more sense. I was going to look it up, thanks for saving me the time .

Yes. Baked beans on toast is a complete protein. I had a big long list I posted in another forum once about this, but the thread is long gone and my source is at the library. It's not difficult to get a 'complete' protein from your meals without eating meat to do it (people do it every day without even realising it). By all means, eat steak if that's your pleasure, don't get me wrong there - but don't think that vegetarians lack the complete proteins they need to be healthy. As it is, Westerners in general (and Americans in particular), eat far more protein than their body actually needs - and all they're doing is pissing it away, so to speak.

*edit* Ah! Just found a table with basic combinations that give you a complete protein:

Rice + legumes.
Rice + sesame.
Wheat + legumes.
Wheat + peanuts + milk.
Wheat + sesame + soya-beans.
Corn + legumes.
Peanuts + sunflower seeds.
Sesame seeds + beans.
Sesame seeds + peanuts + soya-beans.
Sesame seeds + wheat + soya-beans.

 

[kreeden]

Beans don't "produce" protein, Kreeden, they're composed of it.

I'm not sure where you are getting your info Seyorni , but as a diabetic , that's not quite how it was explained to me .

However , as I understand it , there are different types of protien , ammio acids and all of that . Perhaps a part of the confusion here lays with what types our bodies can use ? Just a though . I just know enough about food to control my health problems , which I have managed to do using diet alone .

Our bodies are wonderful things . They can make sugars out of protien and protien out of carbs . Under the right conditions .

 

[Bastet]

Here's another table in 'layman's terms':

- Corn and Lima Beans
- Cereal with Milk
- Macaroni and Cheese
- Cheese Sandwich
- Tofu (bean curd) and Vegetables with Rice
- Pasta and Tomato Sauce, with Parmesan Cheese
- Cheese Stuffed Pasta (ravioli or tortelini)
- Meatless Chili with Cheese
- Baked Potato with Yogurt
- Potato and Egg Salad
- Split-pea Soup with Whole-Grain Crackers
- Rice Pudding
http://nutrition.lifetips.com/cat/11557/protein/index.html

 

[Bastet]

I'm not sure where you are getting your info Seyorni , but as a diabetic , that's not quite how it was explained to me .

Seyorni is quite correct.

 

[kreeden]

Yes. Baked beans on toast is a complete protein. I had a big long list I posted in another forum once about this, but the thread is long gone and my source is at the library. It's not difficult to get a 'complete' protein from your meals without eating meat to do it (people do it every day without even realising it). By all means, eat steak if that's your pleasure, don't get me wrong there - but don't think that vegetarians lack the complete proteins they need to be healthy. As it is, Westerners in general (and Americans in particular), eat far more protein than their body actually needs - and all they're doing is pissing it away, so to speak.

If you are lucky . I have also suffered from gout , resulting from too much protien not being pissed away , so to speak .

 

[kreeden]

Seyorni is quite correct.

He very well could be . I have been wrong before . Which is one reason I usually stay out of these debates . If a diet works for some one , then all the power to them .

 

[Bastet]

He very well could be . I have been wrong before . Which is one reason I usually stay out of these debates . If a diet works for some one , then all the power to them .

That's pretty much what I figure too lol. I'm not out to convert anyone one way or another, I just like the information being spouted to be correct. I actually eat meat myself.

 

[Melody]

I actually listened to a MD speak recently about diabetics, but he encouraged a veterarian diet to many of his diabetic patients and they had a drastic reduction in the amount of insulin they took if not completely removing the need for it all together. I have also read about reflexology healing diabetes. Many things i have read on vegetarian/vegan diets say they are good for diabetics. it is the diet of meat that helps to make people diabetic. nuts and beans have a lot of protein.

And I'm sure that does work....for some people. It does not work for all of us. Any doctor or nutritionist who makes a blank statement that a certain diet will be perfect for everyone is a quack or a fanatic about a specific way of eating, whether it be those promoting high carb diets or low carb diets.

We are unique individuals with different nutritional needs. A vegetarian diet did not work for me. My blood sugar levels climbed radically on a vegetarian diet, and it wasn't because I didn't know what I was doing since I was eating exactly what they told me to in order to make sure I was getting the right nutrients.

No, it is not a diet of meat that makes diabetics. The pancreas kicks out insulin in response to carbohydrates...not protein. In the case of diabetics, eventually the pancreas gives out and they have to take insulin. I was well on my way to having to take insulin since nothing else was working.

So do I think it's ethical to trade my health & life for an animal's life? Yes, I do.

What is more ethical? To treat an animal humanely and then kill it humanely....or to consider an animal as sacred and allow it to slowly starve to death and die of disease?

 

[Druidus]

To treat an animal humanely and then kill it humanely

Do you think it is done that way?

or to consider an animal as sacred and allow it to slowly starve to death and die of disease?

What do you mean?

By the way, were you eating many fruits?

If someone offered you a cure for your diabetes, would you mind not eating meat?

 

[Melody]

Do you think it is done that way?

What do you mean?

By the way, were you eating many fruits?

If someone offered you a cure for your diabetes, would you mind not eating meat?

Druidis,
Yes I know my meat is raised humanely and killed humanely because we either raise it ourselves in the case of chickens or we get our beef from a friend who raises organic fed, pasture bred cows.

My mid-morning and mid-afternoon snacks are fruit - usually half an apple or a cup of berries. More than that and I have problems with my blood sugar.

Would I mind not eating meat? Not particularly. I'm a carb eater by choice and, considering my family history of diabetes, that was the problem. Give me beans, rice, fruits and vegies and I'm a happy camper. My favorite lunch was always lentils and rice...and I do sorely miss them <sigh>.

 

[Druidus]

I'm sorry to hear that. Perhaps diabetes sufferers will see a cure sometime in the near future.

 

[Saw11_2000]

And I'm sure that does work....for some people. It does not work for all of us. Any doctor or nutritionist who makes a blank statement that a certain diet will be perfect for everyone is a quack or a fanatic about a specific way of eating, whether it be those promoting high carb diets or low carb diets.

We are unique individuals with different nutritional needs. A vegetarian diet did not work for me. My blood sugar levels climbed radically on a vegetarian diet, and it wasn't because I didn't know what I was doing since I was eating exactly what they told me to in order to make sure I was getting the right nutrients.

No, it is not a diet of meat that makes diabetics. The pancreas kicks out insulin in response to carbohydrates...not protein. In the case of diabetics, eventually the pancreas gives out and they have to take insulin. I was well on my way to having to take insulin since nothing else was working.

So do I think it's ethical to trade my health & life for an animal's life? Yes, I do.

What is more ethical? To treat an animal humanely and then kill it humanely....or to consider an animal as sacred and allow it to slowly starve to death and die of disease?

Great post Melody, and frubals to you.

I feel the exact same way, of course being a secular humanist, I tend to be biased here.

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/67/79921.htm

Also, I do believe the vegetarian diet will work for some, and that's great, I just happen to get my nutrition from many different sources vegetables, fruits, the occasional hamburger. It depends if you abuse it, if you're a meat lover, and eat it all day every day, you will be fat. There are lots of fats, but if you eat lean meat, like turkey and chicken (be sure to get as much fat out as you can), I believe you can get very good nutritional benefit. I also think it isn't right for me to cut out an entire part of the food pyramid. I know they changed it, but it still contains I think 2-3 servings of meat a day.

 

[Saw11_2000]

I am so sorry about that, I actually forgot to frubal you, I just did though.

 

[DadsKid]

God told us to "subdue the earth" and that man should rule over all living creatures. We should do to animals as we see fit. Some may not like the taste of meat, and that's fine. But to not do it simply because it was once alive is ridiculous. What about all those poor weeds we mutilate to put in our salads? Extremely inhumane, if you go along the same line. True, we shouldn't kill animals just to kill, and the way the Chinese kill their cats before they eat them does seem a bit mean, but to not eat it because of those peoples' actions seems a bit ridiculous.

 

[Yerda]

God told us to "subdue the earth" and that man should rule over all living creatures.

Which god? Got an address? I'm sending the RSPCA.

We should do to animals as we see fit.

Rape? Torture? Introduce them to hard drugs? Force them to watch Ruby Wax (whilst denying them hard drugs)?

Some may not like the taste of meat, and that's fine. But to not do it simply because it was once alive is ridiculous. What about all those poor weeds we mutilate to put in our salads? Extremely inhumane, if you go along the same line.

The old "we should eat animals because plants are alive" still strikes me as nonsensical. Suffering is a much more common reason for a person to reject meat. Plants, however, don't seem to bother all that much when hanging out in a bowl with the salad dressing.

True, we shouldn't kill animals just to kill, and the way the Chinese kill their cats before they eat them does seem a bit mean, but to not eat it because of those peoples' actions seems a bit ridiculous.

The Chinese kill their cats before they eat them? Barbaric.
OK, I deliberately misunderstood there, but has anyone ever said to you "the way those Chinese treat their cats is appalling, that is it, I'm turning veggie!"?

 

[Valjean]

The "have dominion over every living thing" argument (Gen 1:27, 28) underlies a great deal of anti-vegetarian and status-quo apologetics. It is an argument of faith and, as such, is axiomatic to those using it. Challenging this defense is, thus, largely a wasted effort.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

God told us to "subdue the earth" and that man should rule over all living creatures. We should do to animals as we see fit. Some may not like the taste of meat, and that's fine. But to not do it simply because it was once alive is ridiculous. What about all those poor weeds we mutilate to put in our salads? Extremely inhumane, if you go along the same line. True, we shouldn't kill animals just to kill, and the way the Chinese kill their cats before they eat them does seem a bit mean, but to not eat it because of those peoples' actions seems a bit ridiculous.

Um, shouldn't the Chinese kill their cats before they eat them? Isn't this better for everyone than trying to eat the cat while it is still alive?!

 

[Quoth The Raven]

Um, shouldn't the Chinese kill their cats before they eat them? Isn't this better for everyone than trying to eat the cat while it is still alive?!

Yes, but it takes the fun out of it.