Europe aids an ocean of refugees, where's Islam's charity?

[Jayhawker Soule]

I would agree with you Jay if Islam limited itself to being a religion. But it does not. Islam claims to be a total solution, religion, law, politics, hygiene, you name it. If you want to support a reform for Islam in which it limits itself, I'll join in that support. But as long as Islam claims the right to rule politically, we must be able to criticize its political failures. You can't eat your cake and have it too.

This is disingenuous drivel and you know it. I suspect that others know it as well.

 

[icehorse]

This is disingenuous drivel and you know it. I suspect that others know it as well.

What a shockingly logical rebuttal Jay!

Seriously, what part of my last post do you disagree with? I made a claim. If you disagree, prove it wrong. Let's start with:

"The Islamic Republic of Iran" and Saudi Arabia, and the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan".

 

[sun rise]

Thank you

I'm not really at risk, it is just against the law to criticize the govt. or raising suspicions. A simple Google search could find my posts. I'm really fine normally.

It's too easy for me to forget how lucky I am to live in a country where I can publicly violently disagree with the government. Countries where that is not possible are ultimately unstable because it forces criticism underground where sooner or later there is a violent eruption.

 

[sun rise]

icehorse, sure we give money. But we really do need to live up to our ideals as expressed in the Statue of Liberty. From my perspective, until we live up to this, we should not be criticizing others for failing to live up to what we profess:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

[icehorse]

icehorse, sure we give money. But we really do need to live up to our ideals as expressed in the Statue of Liberty. From my perspective, until we live up to this, we should not be criticizing others for failing to live up to what we profess:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Hi sunrise,

Who is the "we" that you refer to? I might wish to have some influence concerning the US's immigration policies, but I don't, so all I can do is voice my opinion. (As it turns out, I do agree that we should take in more refugees.)

But yours is a "two wrongs makes it right" sort of argument isn't it? What if I said, "The US should take in more of these refugees, but the OPEC countries should take in some as well." ? The OPEC countries' responsibilities are the same, regardless of what the US does.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Hi soto1 - I have no expectation that Islam will disappear any time soon. But for the sake of all of us, I hope it reforms itself soon.

Does Islam need reforming, or do oppressive, corrupt, and violent societies need reformed? Christianity "reformed" dozens of times, and it didn't stop the belief of "divine right to rule" or keep them from butchering each other. But it was society, not religion, that demanding things change, and it was centuries of social and political reforms that reduced the amount of wars between between the Western Christianized nations, and reduced the number of them grasping for political control. People are going to use whatever they can latch onto to justify their ways. This is not limited to religion. If anything, religion is often nothing more than an excuse to cover the true motives of those calling for acts of wickedness. And, do keep in mind, Western Muslims largely and mostly act and behave as most Westerners, and they do not lust for total political control, killing apostates, or requiring women to be completely covered. However, it's in the Middle East, Northern Africa, South and South East Asia is where we do find those Muslims who do believe Sharia should be legal law, women must be controlled and repressed, and apostates should be killed. Also keep in mind that only about 10% of all Muslims in the world support religious-based violence, and over 90% of those Muslims come from the previously mentioned areas.

 

[icehorse]

Hey Shadow Wolf,

Of the world's Muslims, only a very small percentage live in "the West". You seem to agree with this, but you rattle off the ME, Africa, and Asia as though those areas aren't significant? Those areas are where the vast majority of Muslims live!

As far as defending religion goes:

- Agreed, I don't give Christianity a free pass - it's got its share of enormous problems.
- I disagree that we can give Islam a pass and blame everything else. Islam is one of the few constants across the great span of geographies and cultures where Muslims are a majority. It would seem an incredible coincidence to imagine that it just so happens that where Muslims live, there is a strong support for non-secular, Sharia-ruled societies, but that it has nothing to do with Islam?

 

[Quagmire]

What a shockingly logical rebuttal Jay!

Seriously, what part of my last post do you disagree with? I made a claim. If you disagree, prove it wrong. Let's start with:

"The Islamic Republic of Iran" and Saudi Arabia, and the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan".

So do you think that, for instance, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is actually democratic? Or a republic? Or is being run by the people?

 

[icehorse]

So do you think that, for instance, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is actually democratic? Or a republic? Or is being run by the people?

I think that's a horrible analogy.

Let me ask you, do you think that the countries I listed are not governed with a heavy Sharia influence? (Sharia is antithetical to secularism and modern human rights, correct?)

Here's a map of how much Sharia influences the Muslim world:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_sharia_law_by_country

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Of the world's Muslims, only a very small percentage live in "the West". You seem to agree with this, but you rattle off the ME, Africa, and Asia as though those areas aren't significant? Those areas are where the vast majority of Muslims live!

The point was, which you seemed to miss, that you have people of the same exact religion found throughout the entire world, but when you examine the differences we see that the bad stuff comes from certain cultures. We also find much more Christian extremism in some of those parts. But when Western Muslims mostly and largely hold similar ideas and thoughts as other Westerners, but ME Muslims are were most of the extremists come from, is it the religion, or a culture that is causing the problems?

 

[Quagmire]

I think that's a horrible analogy.

That's OK, I wasn't expecting you to like it.

Let me ask you, do you think that the countries I listed are not governed with a heavy Sharia influence? (Sharia is antithetical to secularism and modern human rights, correct?)

Let me ask you, do you think every Muslim on the planet is in favor of rule by Sharia law?

Here's a map of how much Sharia influences the Muslim world:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_sharia_law_by_country

Thanks. Here's a picture of a monkey eating a banana:

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article9058848.ece/alternates/w620/monkey-bananav3.jpg

 

[MD]

Let me ask you, do you think every Muslim on the planet is in favor of rule by Sharia law?

Sharia is God's law. Muslims believe that the Quran is the literal word of God. Thus, a Muslim who believes in his religion must believe in the Sharia, otherwise they cease to be a Muslim.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Sharia is God's law. Muslims believe that the Quran is the literal word of God. Thus, a Muslim who believes in his religion must believe in the Sharia, otherwise they cease to be a Muslim.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...ligion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
Muslims also tend to believe sharia has only one, true understanding, but this opinion is far from universal; in some countries, substantial minorities of Muslims believe sharia should be open to multiple interpretations.
Although many Muslims around the world say sharia should be the law of the land in their country [my addition: many Christians throughout the world believe this in regards to their rules], the survey reveals divergent opinions about the precise application of Islamic law.14 Generally, supporters of sharia are most comfortable with its application in cases of family or property disputes. In most regions, fewer favor other specific aspects of sharia, such as cutting off the hands of thieves and executing people who convert from Islam to another faith.
...
In 17 of the 23 countries where the question was asked, at least half of Muslims say sharia is the revealed word of God.
Muslims in Southeast Asia and Central Asia are somewhat less likely to say sharia comes directly from God.
...
Muslims differ widely as to whether sharia should be open to multiple understandings. While many say there is only one true interpretation, substantial percentages in most countries either say there are multiple interpretations or say they do not know.
In a number of countries, significant percentages say they are unsure whether sharia should be subject to one or multiple understandings,
...
Support for making sharia the official law of the land varies significantly across the six major regions included in the study.
...
Among Muslims who support making sharia the law of the land, most do not believe that it should be applied to non-Muslims.
...
Compared with attitudes toward applying sharia in the domestic or criminal spheres, Muslims in the countries surveyed are significantly less supportive of the death penalty for converts.
And here are some of the charts:

So, as you can see, although Sharia is believed in, it's exact belief and interpretation widely varies.

 

[icehorse]

Quagmire said:

Let me ask you, do you think every Muslim on the planet is in favor of rule by Sharia law?

No, only 500 million or so.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Quagmire said:

No, only 500 million or so.

And that would mean that about 1,100,000,000 don't.

 

[Smart_Guy]

It's too easy for me to forget how lucky I am to live in a country where I can publicly violently disagree with the government. Countries where that is not possible are ultimately unstable because it forces criticism underground where sooner or later there is a violent eruption.

I think it depends on the people. The law here, although limits freedom of speech, significantly reduces public abuse, protests, demonstrations, riots and vandalism, things that increase by giving freedom to big numbers of people. I don't remember more than 1 or 2 of those in my whole life here. We here mostly are not interested in protesting and similar events because we don't like jams and crowds, along with other reasons, since the traffic is so crowed, and we are generally protective that we don't want to be criticized or abused in public, something that absolute freedom of speech creates.

Sometimes we compare other cultures and people to our own forgetting that this is a big world with so many differences and standards. Cultures have wonders

 

[icehorse]

And that would mean that about 1,100,000,000 don't.

A. 500 million people who disagree with basic human rights is far, far too many, wouldn't you say?
B. Bravo, so those remaining 1.1 billion can modernize the ideology.

 

[MARCELLO]

The strange thing about Muslim countries is that the rich is secular. More you get poorer more you are conservative.

 

[Lyndon]

The rich are the less religious in America too, nothing different there.

 

[Smart_Guy]

We have a saying here that translates to "money blinds the soul". No, we don't use it with religion, we use it with those getting smug because of it. But I guess religious people could use it too

I'm not rich nor am I poor, and I'm kinda religiously moderate. Hmm, interesting!