EVOLUTION, what a lie.

[painted wolf]

Response: I agree to your explanation on ToE. But I disagree as to the fact that it's true. A fish does not change into a slightly different fish, nor has anyone ever witnessed such a thing.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/evolution-vs-creationism/73274-week-evolution.html

wa:do

 

[Autodidact]

So the people who say that they have seen it are what, lying?

So what piece of what I described is wrong? Are offspring not a little different from their parents? Do individuals not pass their traits on to their descendants? Would this not result in change over time?

You know that children are different from their parents. What prevents these differences from adding up over the generations, so that 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 does not equal 4?

 

[Autodidact]

Here is a single example of almost exactly what I described happening: the stickleback fish. Many years ago, these fish lived in the ocean. Once the migrated into inland lakes, they evolved separately into separate species. Actual scientists actually study these actual species. Now please show us why they're wrong in their explanation and observation.

 

[Autodidact]

The nylon bug. Nylon was invented in 1935. It didn't exist before then. There was no such thing. Japanese scientists discovered a species of bacteria living in the waste discharge of nylon factories. It eats nylon! It could not possibly have existed before, because there was no nylon. It's a new species. It evolved and came into existence after 1935.

Now please explain how this is not the case.

 

[Autodidact]

So what you're saying, Fatihah, is that populations do not change over time? Every creature on earth is exactly like it's ancestors, and its descendants will also remain exactly the same?

So, for example, the London mosquitoes don't exist?

 

[Fatihah]

So the people who say that they have seen it are what, lying?(End quote)

Response: I wouldn't call ToE a lie. It's just not factual. And since it is a theory which purposesly does not consider Allah(God) as the creator, than that's the most logical theory which can be derived.

Quote: Autodidact/
So what piece of what I described is wrong? Are offspring not a little different from their parents? Do individuals not pass their traits on to their descendants? Would this not result in change over time?(End quote)

Response: All of what you say is true....except when you say it changes into another species over time. We can witness evolution take place all the time. I can watch a little boy involve into a man. So because I can clearly see this, I can logically say it's true. However, no one has seen a boy evolve into another species. That's the difference.

Quote:Auotdidact/
You know that children are different from their parents. What prevents these differences from adding up over the generations, so that 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 does not equal 4?(End quote)

Response: Now here is the part that you find hard to believe, but the difference is Allah. He created all life and within each species is the ability to evolve, but it has it's limitation. And evolving into another species is one of them.

 

[painted wolf]

I wouldn't call ToE a lie. It's just not factual. And since it is a theory which purposesly does not consider Allah(God) as the creator, than that's the most logical theory which can be derived.

No scientific theory considers god.... That's the way science works.

All of what you say is true....except when you say it changes into another species over time. We can witness evolution take place all the time. I can watch a little boy involve into a man. So because I can clearly see this, I can logically say it's true. However, no one has seen a boy evolve into another species. That's the difference.

That isn't evolution...

Now here is the part that you find hard to believe, but the difference is Allah. He created all life and within each species is the ability to evolve, but it has it's limitation. And evolving into another species is one of them.

This week in Evolution...

wa:do

 

[Autodidact]

So the people who say that they have seen it are what, lying?(End quote)

Response: I wouldn't call ToE a lie. It's just not factual.

Not the theory, Fatihah, the people who have actually observed new species actually coming into existence. Are they all lying? You said: populations do not change over time. I said: Here are several examples of just that. What do you say? They are lying about that?

And since it is a theory which purposesly does not consider Allah(God) as the creator, than that's the most logical theory which can be derived.

It's this kind of thing that tries our patience. I said at the beginning of our conversation that we are all assuming that Allah created all things, including the new species I described above. The ToE I am describing to you is based on the assumption that Allah is the creator of everything. If you accept this theory, you also accept that Allah is the creator of all.

Having to say the same things over and over is very tedious. Please pay attnetion, or I will begin to think you are stupid or dishonest. Thank you.

Quote: Autodidact/
So what piece of what I described is wrong? Are offspring not a little different from their parents? Do individuals not pass their traits on to their descendants? Would this not result in change over time?(End quote)

Response: All of what you say is true....except when you say it changes into another species over time. We can witness evolution take place all the time. I can watch a little boy involve into a man. So because I can clearly see this, I can logically say it's true. However, no one has seen a boy evolve into another species. That's the difference.

If every piece is true, then how is it possible for populations not to change over time?

Quote:Auotdidact/
You know that children are different from their parents. What prevents these differences from adding up over the generations, so that 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 does not equal 4?(End quote)

Response: Now here is the part that you find hard to believe, but the difference is Allah. He created all life and within each species is the ability to evolve, but it has it's limitation. And evolving into another species is one of them.

Yes, we know that. ALLAH CREATED ALL, INCLUDING THE ABILITY OF POPULATIONS TO CHANGE.

If you refuse to pay attention, I really cannot bear to do this.

So you're saying that Allah has created things in such a way that populations cannot change? How do you know? Is Allah not capable of creating things in just this way, if He so desired?

 

[Autodidact]

So I gather that, in the same stubborn refusal to learn, you also refuse to learn how to use the quote function properly, preferring your readers to be confused and annoyed?

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTEainted wolf]


That isn't evolution...(End quote)

Response: Yes, it is.

 

[Jose Fly]

I honestly don't think Fatihah is actually looking at the links you guys are providing. It could be because she's using a Blackberry, or it could be because you're trying to show her information she doesn't want to believe exists.

I suggest you do something like this...

Molecular cytogenetic analysis of recently evolved Tragopogon (Asteraceae) allopolyploids reveal a karyotype that is additive of the diploid progenitors1

J. Chris Pires2,7, K. Yoong Lim3, Ales Kovarík4, Roman Matyásek4, Amy Boyd2, Andrew R. Leitch3, Ilia J. Leitch2, Michael D. Bennett2, Pamela S. Soltis5 and Douglas E. Soltis6

[SIZE=-1]2Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 3DS, UK; 3School of Biological Sciences, Queen Mary College, University of London, E1 4NS, UK; 4Institute of Biophysics, Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic, Kralovopolska 135, CS-61265 Brno, Czech Republic; 5Florida Museum of Natural History and the Genetics Institute, University of Florida, Gainesville, Florida 32611 USA; 6Department of Botany and the Genetics Institute, University of Florida, Gainesville, Florida 32611 USA [/SIZE]
Tragopogon mirus and T. miscellus (both 2n = 4x = 24) are recent allotetraploids derived from T. dubius [FONT=arial,helvetica]x[/FONT] T. porrifolius and T. dubius [FONT=arial,helvetica]x[/FONT] T. pratensis (each 2n = 2x = 12), respectively. The genome sizes of T. mirus are additive of those of its diploid parents, but at least some populations of T. miscellus have undergone genome downsizing. To survey for genomic rearrangements in the allopolyploids, four repetitive sequences were physically mapped. TPRMBO (unit size 160 base pairs [bp]) and TGP7 (532 bp) are tandemly organized satellite sequences isolated from T. pratensis and T. porrifolius, respectively. Fluorescent in situ hybridization to the diploids showed that TPRMBO is a predominantly centromeric repeat on all 12 chromosomes, while TGP7 is a subtelomeric sequence on most chromosome arms. The distribution of tandem repetitive DNA loci (TPRMBO, TGP7, 18S-5.8S-26S rDNA, and 5S rDNA) gave unique molecular karyotypes for the three diploid species, permitting the identification of the parental chromosomes in the polyploids. The location and number of these loci were inherited without apparent changes in the allotetraploids. There was no evidence for major genomic rearrangements in Tragopogon allopolyploids that have arisen multiple times in North America within the last 80 yr.

Simple version: This is the recently observed evolution of two new species, right here in Eastern Washington.

 

[Autodidact]

Fatihah. Painted Wolf is a biologist. Do you have any idea how arrogant and idiotic it is of you to try to tell her what is and is not evolution?

I explained to you what evolution is. It is not a boy growing into a man. An individual changing into anything isn't evolution. Evolution is populations changing over time.

It is very frustrating talking to someone who is so closed to learning.

 

[Autodidact]

I honestly don't think Fatihah is actually looking at the links you guys are providing. It could be because she's using a Blackberry, or it could be because you're trying to show her information she doesn't want to believe exists.

Ya think?

I suggest you do something like this...


Simple version: This is the recently observed evolution of two new species, right here in Eastern Washington.[/quote]

I can't even get her to grasp a concept as simple as a population changing over time.

What bothers me is that there are religious leaders going around lying to people, telling them that ToE denies the existence of their God. So rather than being open to learn of this important scientific discovery, they stick their fingers in their ears, hum loudly, and hope it just goes away. Meanwhile those who are open to learning make all the scientific discoveries. These religious liars are not serving their people.

 

[Fatihah]

I honestly don't think Fatihah is actually looking at the links you guys are providing. It could be because she's using a Blackberry, or it could be because you're trying to show her information she doesn't want to believe exists.

I suggest you do something like this...


Simple version: This is the recently observed evolution of two new species, right here in Eastern Washington.

Response: "And Allah has created every animal from water. Of them are(some) that go upon their bellies, and of them are(some) that go upon two feet, and among them are(some) that go upon four. Allah creates what He pleases. Surely, Allah has the power to do all that He pleases." (Ch.24:45)

Simple version:
Allah is the creator.

 

[Jose Fly]

Auto,

What bothers me is that there are religious leaders going around lying to people

That's been going on in one form or another for thousands of years.

So rather than being open to learn of this important scientific discovery, they stick their fingers in their ears, hum loudly, and hope it just goes away. Meanwhile those who are open to learning make all the scientific discoveries. These religious liars are not serving their people.

In any other context we would use terms like "cult" and "brainwashing".

 

[Jose Fly]

Response: "And Allah has created every animal from water. Of them are(some) that go upon their bellies, and of them are(some) that go upon two feet, and among them are(some) that go upon four. Allah creates what He pleases. Surely, Allah has the power to do all that He pleases." (Ch.24:45)

Simple version:
Allah is the creator.

So what you're saying is, even if we see something happen right before our eyes, if the Quran says it can't happen, it didn't happen.

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE:Autodidact]Fatihah. Painted Wolf is a biologist. Do you have any idea how arrogant and idiotic it is of you to try to tell her what is and is not evolution?(End quote)

Response: Do you understand the error in your response when just a few posts ago that same person called what you described as evolution is not evolution and yet you're defending her?

Quote: Autodidact/
I explained to you what evolution is. It is not a boy growing into a man. An individual changing into anything isn't evolution. Evolution is populations changing over time.

It is very frustrating talking to someone who is so closed to learning.

Response: Yet the person you so boldly defended just now said that what you just said above isn't evolution. Yes it can be frustrating talking to someone who's closed minded in learning. Even harder when their blind at the same time.

 

[painted wolf]

Honestly I think some of the attitude some people show toward the Muslim faith.
If you are being told that Muslims make no contribution to modern science (which is untrue by the way) and other such statements... it puts people on the defensive.

Defensive people become reactionary and unfortunately often stop thinking clearly... It make them more prone to dismiss anything you say on principle and less likely to engage in open dialog.

The only way to approach the subject is through mutual respect and tolerance. If that fails then you can conclude that other factors are at work.

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

Allah is the creator.

Why can evolution not be the process of creation used by Allah?

wa:do

 

[Fatihah]

So what you're saying is, even if we see something happen right before our eyes, if the Quran says it can't happen, it didn't happen.

Response: Not at all. But that's the whole point. "We" didn't see anything. The "We" have been programmed to say they saw something despite the fact that "you" yourself have not seen it take place and allowed the "We" to program you to believe in that something that never took place.