EVOLUTION, what a lie.

[Autodidact]

Response: "And Allah has created every animal from water. Of them are(some) that go upon their bellies, and of them are(some) that go upon two feet, and among them are(some) that go upon four. Allah creates what He pleases. Surely, Allah has the power to do all that He pleases." (Ch.24:45)

Simple version:
Allah is the creator.

Fatihah: Are you really stupid, completely dishonest, or absolutely rude? I think I have probably said at least ten times in this thread that ALLAH IS THE CREATOR. This entire conversation is premised on the assumption that Allah is the creator of all things, including every new species. This is not a conversation about who. It's about how. How did He create all things?

If I have to say this one more time, I'm done, and my only question will be what your problem is, comprehension, honesty, or simple manners.

Maybe a parable will help. A devout Muslim, Meraj, called a plumber because her pipes were leaking. The plumber, Tariq, also very devout, examined the pipes and explained that one was rusted and would need to be replaced. "Infidel!," screamed Meraj. "You deny Allah, creator of all, including the pipes. Your so-called 'plumbing theory' denies the role of Allah. If the pipe is leaking, it is because Allah commanded it to leak, and the only way to fix it is to pray." Tariq replied, "Allah, pbuh, created the pipes through a pipe-fitter, not directly. In His greatness, he provided that occasionally they would rust, and the way to fix them is to replace the rusted pipe." "Heretic," replied Meraj, and her pipes are leaking to this day.

Yes, Allah created all things. But did he do so directly, by magically poofing them into existence, or by creating an evolutionary process? That's the question we are trying to answer.

 

[Autodidact]

[QUOTE:Autodidact]Fatihah. Painted Wolf is a biologist. Do you have any idea how arrogant and idiotic it is of you to try to tell her what is and is not evolution?(End quote)

Response: Do you understand the error in your response when just a few posts ago that same person called what you described as evolution is not evolution and yet you're defending her?

You misunderstood the conversation.
Quote: Autodidact/
I explained to you what evolution is. It is not a boy growing into a man. An individual changing into anything isn't evolution. Evolution is populations changing over time.

It is very frustrating talking to someone who is so closed to learning.

Response: Yet the person you so boldly defended just now said that what you just said above isn't evolution. Yes it can be frustrating talking to someone who's closed minded in learning. Even harder when their blind at the same time.

No, she didn't. You misunderstood. She said that what you were describing is not evolution.

 

[Autodidact]

Response: Not at all. But that's the whole point. "We" didn't see anything. The "We" have been programmed to say they saw something despite the fact that "you" yourself have not seen it take place and allowed the "We" to program you to believe in that something that never took place.

I cited you several instances of new species being observed. Are you denying those reports? Say, for example, the London mosquito. Doesn't exist?

 

[Jose Fly]

Response: Not at all. But that's the whole point. "We" didn't see anything. The "We" have been programmed to say they saw something despite the fact that "you" yourself have not seen it take place and allowed the "We" to program you to believe in that something that never took place.

So you're saying the scientists who wrote that paper are lying and perpetrating a fraud?

And BTW, these new species are basically in my back yard. I live right where this took place, so when I say "we", I really mean "we". I guess I'm part of the lie too, eh?

 

[painted wolf]

Just to make clear.... a boy becoming a man is not evolution.

Evolution is a change in alleles over time... that is, genetic (phenotypic) change in a population over time.

wa:do

 

[Autodidact]

And I take it you stubbornly refuse to learn the quote function?

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE:Autodidact]

Not the theory, Fatihah, the people who have actually observed new species actually coming into existence. Are they all lying? You said: populations do not change over time. I said: Here are several examples of just that. What do you say? They are lying about that? It's this kind of thing that tries our patience. I said at the beginning of our conversation that we are all assuming that Allah created all things, including the new species I described above. The ToE I am describing to you is based on the assumption that Allah is the creator of everything. If you accept this theory, you also accept that Allah is the creator of all.

Having to say the same things over and over is very tedious. Please pay attnetion, or I will begin to think you are stupid or dishonest. Thank you.(End quote)

Response: Of course they are lying. The fact that you actually had to ask that question is the disturbing part. You have never seen it happen, yet someone who calls themself a scientist says it did and not it becomes true? That's not logical at all.

Then there's the double standard of denouncing the prophets and the word of Allah to be true when scholars and witnesses say that they saw miracles and clear proofs of the existence of Allah and the true message yet what they saw is wrong and what the scientist see is right. Extremely hypocritical.

Quote: Autodidact/
So what piece of what I described is wrong? Are offspring not a little different from their parents? Do individuals not pass their traits on to their descendants? Would this not result in change over time?

If every piece is true, then how is it possible for populations not to change over time?(End quote)

Response: The same reason why you can't fly, it's not in nature to do so.

Quote:Auotdidact/
You know that children are different from their parents. What prevents these differences from adding up over the generations, so that 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 does not equal 4.

Yes, we know that. ALLAH CREATED ALL, INCLUDING THE ABILITY OF POPULATIONS TO CHANGE.

If you refuse to pay attention, I really cannot bear to do this.

So you're saying that Allah has created things in such a way that populations cannot change? How do you know? Is Allah not capable of creating things in just this way, if He so desired?(Quote)

Response: Allah is capable of creating things this way but He hasn't.

 

[Jose Fly]

Of course they are lying

There ya' go. There's absolutely no point in continuing. As soon as it gets to the point where a creationist just says "they're lying" every time data is presented, there's nothing else you can do or say.

It's sad what religion can do to people, isn't it?

 

[Autodidact]

Yes, it is. I haven't given up yet, though.

So, Fatihah, do all scientists lie regularly as a matter of course, or only Biologists.? Are you opposed to science in general, or just Biology? Do you think Biology is one big anti-Allah conspiracy? Or just that Biologists are particularly stupid?

It's unfortunate that you don't understand the basics of how science works. One piece is that anything observed must be replicable. That means that anyone, including you, can go and observe the same things and see for themselves. If it's not replicable, science won't accept it. For example, the new mosquitos we see in the London subway. You can go yourself, collect some mosquitos, and see whether they are a new species or not. This keeps scientists honest.

You are slandering honest, hardworking scientists. Anyone of them could sue you, and would win.

What you're doing is looking right an an elephant and denying it's in front of you, because you believe the Q'uran says there are no elephants.

O.K., you say that Allah could have created evolution, but has not done so. How do you know?

O.K., you agree with every statement that I made, but deny that the result is change. However, the statements that I made lead inexorably to change. What you're saying, in effect, is like:
Yes, you have two apples, and I have three apples, but if we put them together, we won't have five apples. Five is not in the apple's nature.

If all the statements I made are true, then, inescapably, there is no way that populations can NOT change over time.

Do you agree that populations change over time, and just deny they can change enough to make a new species, or do you assert that populations don't change over time?

 

[Fatihah]

There ya' go. There's absolutely no point in continuing. As soon as it gets to the point where a creationist just says "they're lying" every time data is presented, there's nothing else you can do or say.

It's sad what religion can do to people, isn't it?

Response: I couldn't agree more. When a theist provides witness accounts of Jesus performing miracles...it's a lie.
When witness accounts are presented to prove the miracles of Moses....it's a lie.
Of Muhammad...it's a lie
Of Allah himself....it's a lie


But when a scentist says that they've seen something evolve...IT's TRUE!!!!

The hypocrisy is unbelievable.

 

[Autodidact]

Response: I couldn't agree more. When a theist provides witness accounts of Jesus performing miracles...it's a lie.
When witness accounts are presented to prove the miracles of Moses....it's a lie.
Of Muhammad...it's a lie
Of Allah himself....it's a lie

Nobody in this thread has said any such thing. If you want to debate miracles, start a thread.

But when a scentist says that they've seen something evolve...IT' TRUE!!!!

Not one scientist, Fatihah, every scientist who has ever examined the phenomenon in question. Every scientist that has studied the London mosquito has seen that they are a new species. Are all of them lying? How do they cover it up?

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE:Autodidact]Yes, it is. I haven't given up yet, though.

So, Fatihah, do all scientists lie regularly as a matter of course, or only Biologists.? Are you opposed to science in general, or just Biology? Do you think Biology is one big anti-Allah conspiracy? Or just that Biologists are particularly stupid? (End quote)

Response: When it comes to the creation of species, it's the biggest lie I have ever seen. The sad part is when a person is brainwashed to believe it then poke fun at others for not agreeing.

Quote: Autodidact/
It's unfortunate that you don't understand the basics of how science works. One piece is that anything observed must be replicable. That means that anyone, including you, can go and observe the same things and see for themselves. If it's not replicable, science won't accept it. For example, the new mosquitos we see in the London subway. You can go yourself, collect some mosquitos, and see whether they are a new species or not. This keeps scientists honest.

You are slandering honest, hardworking scientists. Anyone of them could sue you, and would win.

What you're doing is looking right an an elephant and denying it's in front of you, because you believe the Q'uran says there are no elephants.(End quote)

Response: It's practically unbearable. Watching you testify that species evolve into another species knowing you've never seen such a thing. Knowing no one has seen such a thing. Why is it that only "scientists" see this who happen to disbelieve in God? I know many people with animals and pets who know many people with animals and pets and none of them evolved into another species. Yet some "scientist" saw it happen. The absurdity and dishonesty is shameful.

Quote: Autodidact/
O.K., you say that Allah could have created evolution, but has not done so. How do you know?(End quote)

Response: Because I can see so with my own eyes. You don't have to be a biologist to see.

Quote: Auotdidact/
O.K., you agree with every statement that I made, but deny that the result is change. However, the statements that I made lead inexorably to change. What you're saying, in effect, is like:
Yes, you have two apples, and I have three apples, but if we put them together, we won't have five apples. Five is not in the apple's nature.(End quote)

Response: That is not the same. The apples didn't evolve into 5.

Quote: Autodidact/
If all the statements I made are true, then, inescapably, there is no way that populations can NOT change over time.

Do you agree that populations change over time, and just deny they can change enough to make a new species, or do you assert that populations don't change over time? (End quote)

Response: Depending on what you mean by change.

 

[Autodidact]

[QUOTE:Autodidact]

Response: It's practically unbearable. Watching you testify that species evolve into another species knowing you've never seen such a thing. Knowing no one has seen such a thing. Why is it that only "scientists" see this who happen to disbelieve in God? [/quote] You are mistaken. Biologists, including faithful Christian and Muslim biologists, observe the same thing. Science doesn't care what religion you are, and scientists of every and no religion observe the same phenomena. You are still making the mistake of confusing evolution with atheism. Evolution is no more atheistic than is plumbing.

I know many people with animals and pets who know many people with animals and pets and none of them evolved into another species.

You are once again ignoring the description I gave you. It is not something that in an individual does, but a populaiton over time.

Yet some "scientist" saw it happen. The absurdity and dishonesty is shameful.

Not some "scientist", every scientist who has looked at it. Every single one. Of every religion. Are they all lying? Are all scientists liars? Is science on big lie? You're the one who should be ashamed. You are committing legal libel every time you type. You are accusing honest, hardworking scientists of just outright lying, without a shred of evidence they are doing so. These are people whose work has been subject to the toughest scrutiny.

Quote: Autodidact/
O.K., you say that Allah could have created evolution, but has not done so. How do you know?(End quote)

Response: Because I can see so with my own eyes. You don't have to be a biologist to see.

So science is impossible? Our knowlege is limited to what you, Fatihah, can see? No atoms? No electricity?

Quote: Auotdidact/
O.K., you agree with every statement that I made, but deny that the result is change. However, the statements that I made lead inexorably to change. What you're saying, in effect, is like:
Yes, you have two apples, and I have three apples, but if we put them together, we won't have five apples. Five is not in the apple's nature.(End quote)

Response: That is not the same. The apples didn't evolve into 5.

What's the same is that one follows inexorably from the other. If you have 2 and you have 3, then you must have five. If all the statements I said are correct, then you must get change in a population over time.

Quote: Autodidact/
If all the statements I made are true, then, inescapably, there is no way that populations can NOT change over time.

Do you agree that populations change over time, and just deny they can change enough to make a new species, or do you assert that populations don't change over time? (End quote)

Response: Depending on what you mean by change.

[/QUOTE] ??? Uh, change. They're different. They're not the same. I don't know how else to explain it.

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE:Autodidact]

Quote: Fatihah
Response: It's practically unbearable. Watching you testify that species evolve into another species knowing you've never seen such a thing. Knowing no one has seen such a thing. Why is it that only "scientists" see this who happen to disbelieve in God? [End quote]

Quote: Autodidact/
You are mistaken. Biologists, including faithful Christian and Muslim biologists, observe the same thing. Science doesn't care what religion you are, and scientists of every and no religion observe the same phenomena.(End quote)

Response: No muslim is a muslim if he or she believes in ToE. The qur'an or sunnah doesn't say so.

Quote: Autodidact/
You are still making the mistake of confusing evolution with atheism. Evolution is no more atheistic than is plumbing. You are once again ignoring the description I gave you. It is not something that in an individual does, but a populaiton over time. Not some "scientist", every scientist who has looked at it. Every single one. Of every religion. Are they all lying? Are all scientists liars? Is science on big lie? You're the one who should be ashamed. You are committing legal libel every time you type. You are accusing honest, hardworking scientists of just outright lying, without a shred of evidence they are doing so. These are people whose work has been subject to the toughest scrutiny.(End quote)

Response: Atheist believe in evolution so there is a connection. Do you deny the miracles of Jesus and Moses and Muhammad? Secondly, under your name where it says religion, it says atheist yet you say that Allah is the creator? It doesn't even go together. If Allah is the creator, there is no ToE. How do you acknowledge Allah and not the qur'an or sunnah? ToE would have to be mentioned there as well.

You don't have to be a biologist or know science to know if something evolved. All a person needs is one thing....EYES. Therefore, anyone and everyone should be able to see species evolving into something else. Yet that is not the case. I would have seen it. That is not the case. Those that I know would have seen it. That is not the case. Why? Because it doesn't happen and it never happened. If it did, then why is it that only scientists see it when everyone has eyes?

 

[Autodidact]

[QUOTE:Autodidact]

Quote: Fatihah
Response: It's practically unbearable. Watching you testify that species evolve into another species knowing you've never seen such a thing. Knowing no one has seen such a thing. Why is it that only "scientists" see this who happen to disbelieve in God? [End quote]

Quote: Autodidact/
You are mistaken. Biologists, including faithful Christian and Muslim biologists, observe the same thing. Science doesn't care what religion you are, and scientists of every and no religion observe the same phenomena.(End quote)

Response: No muslim is a muslim if he or she believes in ToE. The qur'an or sunnah doesn't say so.

So Allah put you in charge of deciding who is a true Muslim then?

Here's your problem: ToE is correct. If you think Islam depends on denying ToE, then Islam depends on denying the truth. That would be a problem for Islam. So maybe you want to rethink whether Islam in fact requires that.

Quote: Autodidact/
You are still making the mistake of confusing evolution with atheism. Evolution is no more atheistic than is plumbing. You are once again ignoring the description I gave you. It is not something that in an individual does, but a populaiton over time. Not some "scientist", every scientist who has looked at it. Every single one. Of every religion. Are they all lying? Are all scientists liars? Is science on big lie? You're the one who should be ashamed. You are committing legal libel every time you type. You are accusing honest, hardworking scientists of just outright lying, without a shred of evidence they are doing so. These are people whose work has been subject to the toughest scrutiny.(End quote)

Response: Atheist believe in evolution so there is a connection.

No one with any sense "believes in" ToE. It's not a belief system. It's a scientific theory, accepted by and the foundation of, modern Biology. You either accept science or you don't. Apparently you don't.

Do you deny the miracles of Jesus and Moses and Muhammad?

Sorry, not interested in this irrelevant question. Let's stick to the subject.

Secondly, under your name where it says religion, it says atheist yet you say that Allah is the creator?

I'm sorry, I thought you were sophisticated enough to understand what an assumption is. For the purpose of this thread, we're assuming that Allah created all. We're not arguing that. We're agreeing to agree on that. That's just so you can see that that idea is not in conflict with ToE, any more than it's in conflict with plumbing. You can have an atheist plumber. That doesn't mean the Theory of Plumbing denies Allah.

It doesn't even go together. If Allah is the creator, there is no ToE.

Why not?

How do you acknowledge Allah and not the qur'an or sunnah? ToE would have to be mentioned there as well.

You mean nothing is true unless it's in the scriptures. So all of science is false? EAch and every scientific discover of the last 1000 years is false?

You don't have to be a biologist or know science to know if something evolved. All a person needs is one thing....EYES. Therefore, anyone and everyone should be able to see species evolving into something else.

You didn't understand a word I said, did you? Did you read the description I gave? 100 years. It's not something you see happening, but something you have to figure out. That's what science is for.

Yet that is not the case. I would have seen it. That is not the case. Those that I know would have seen it. That is not the case. Why? Because it doesn't happen and it never happened. If it did, then why is it that only scientists see it when everyone has eyes?

You've never seen an atom either, have you? Does that mean they don't exist?

Basically, what you're saying is that science doesn't work. If Fatihah can't see it and just KNOW it's true, then forget it. No electricity. (You've never seen an electron, have you?) No computers. (You don't know how your computer works, do you?) No anti-biotics. (Unless you've seen a germ?)

 

[Autodidact]

Fatihah: Still prefer your ignorance of how to use the quote function to learning how? Not surprised, you cling to your ignorance as if your soul depended on it.

 

[Autodidact]

Fatihah: So all the Biologists in all the universities throughout the world have no sense?

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE:Autodidact]So Allah put you in charge of deciding who is a true Muslim then?(End quote)

Response: No. And never said He did.

Quote: Autodidact/
Here's your problem: ToE is correct. If you think Islam depends on denying ToE, then Islam depends on denying the truth. That would be a problem for Islam. So maybe you want to rethink whether Islam in fact requires that.(End quote)

Response: There's a statement. Where's the proof?

Quote: Autididact
Sorry, not interested in this irrelevant question.(End quote)

Response: Of course. Jumping out of the way to avoid the display of your obvious hypocrisy. Smart move. Then since you're not interested, then there is no need to go on.

 

[Ghostaka]

Fatihah: Are you really stupid, completely dishonest, or absolutely rude? I think I have probably said at least ten times in this thread that ALLAH IS THE CREATOR. This entire conversation is premised on the assumption that Allah is the creator of all things, including every new species. This is not a conversation about who. It's about how. How did He create all things?

When you start to insult people, it is a sign that you are losing your grip in the debate (sorely).

Maybe a parable will help. A devout Muslim, Meraj, called a plumber because her pipes were leaking. The plumber, Tariq, also very devout, examined the pipes and explained that one was rusted and would need to be replaced. "Infidel!," screamed Meraj. "You deny Allah, creator of all, including the pipes. Your so-called 'plumbing theory' denies the role of Allah. If the pipe is leaking, it is because Allah commanded it to leak, and the only way to fix it is to pray." Tariq replied, "Allah, pbuh, created the pipes through a pipe-fitter, not directly. In His greatness, he provided that occasionally they would rust, and the way to fix them is to replace the rusted pipe." "Heretic," replied Meraj, and her pipes are leaking to this day.

Come on . Allah has appointed your time to die. Does that mean you can drive at hectic speeds without a seat belt because you think that if you're going to die; it is you time? No. You may end up paralyzed from the neck down yet still be alive (on life support) becuase it wasn't your time; but now you just crippled yourself. Same logic. Do you get what I mean? Trust in Allah but tie up your camel .

Yes, Allah created all things. But did he do so directly, by magically poofing them into existence, or by creating an evolutionary process? That's the question we are trying to answer.

In many instances Allah mentions in the Holy Qur'an how He has created man:

In Chapter 23 (The Believers):

14. Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allāh, the best of creators.
15. Then indeed, after that you are to die.
16. Then indeed you, on the Day of Resurrection, will be resurrected.

Then again in Chapter 75 (Resurrection):

36. Thinketh man that he is to be left aimless?
37. Was he not a drop of fluid which gushed forth?
38. Then he became a clot; then (Allah) shaped and fashioned
39. And made of him a pair, the male and female.
40. Is not He (who doeth so) able to bring the dead to life?

Chapter 86 (The Morning Star)

5. So let man consider from what he is created.
6. He is created from a gushing fluid
7. That issued from between the loins and ribs.
8. Lo! He verily is Able to return him (unto life)

Allah does not need to write a thesis paper to prove this to humans. Those that are open-minded should be able to see that He is able to create us with His Might. And this is evident in the numerous signs Allah has placed in the solar system, sky, earth, animals and of course; ourselves.

Peace be upon you.
---------
Whatever written of Truth and benefit is only due to Allah’s Assistance and Guidance, and whatever of error is of me. Allah Alone Knows Best and He is the Only Source of Strength.

 

[slave2six]

Those that are open-minded should be able to see that He is able to create us with His Might.

I'll give Allah $100 if he uses "His Might" for something tangibly beneficial; say revealing himself to everyone so that there is no dispute of his existence or explaining to the morons who kill other people in His name that they are in fact morons and need to knock it off or even that, yes, he did also create the Jews and so hating them is an offense to him since such hate basically translates into an insult against their creator.

All the crap that you offer above is merely vacuous.