EVOLUTION, what a lie.

[Ghostaka]

Why would Allah trick scientists by changing things in the lab in the way that evolution shows they should change?

I personally don't think Creator would deceive me that way...

wa:do

And why do you perceive it as deception? Allah is the Creator of all things. There are things that we humans do not know/comprehend about how Allah creates. Allah isn't "tricking' anyone. If we something that is still a theory/relatively unknown to Allah's creation and then it does not fit to our findings, it is due to our lack of knowledge. Don't know if I'm being clear :cover: do you get what I mean?

Peace be upon you.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

And why do you perceive it as deception? Allah is the Creator of all things. There are things that we humans do not know/comprehend about how Allah creates. Allah isn't "tricking' anyone. If we {find?}something that is still a theory/relatively unknown to Allah's creation and then it does not fit to our findings, it is due to our lack of knowledge. Don't know if I'm being clear :cover: do you get what I mean?

Peace be upon you.

So maybe your "lack of knowledge" is about ToE.
Could that be?

 

[Ghostaka]

Some gods are sneaky, some aren't. His is, yours isn't.

There is only One. And He has revealed 99 attributes to us; "sneaky" is not one of them.

Allah (SWT) said: "No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have Lorded it over others! Glory to Allah! (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him! He knows what is hidden and what is open; too high is He for the partners they attribute to Him!" {The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 23, verses 91-92}

Peace be upon you.

 

[Ghostaka]

So maybe your "lack of knowledge" is about ToE.
Could that be?

Not really since that is not the subject.

Peace be upon you.

 

[Sunstone]

There is only One. And He has revealed 99 attributes to us; "sneaky" is not one of them.

Allah (SWT) said: "No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have Lorded it over others! Glory to Allah! (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him! He knows what is hidden and what is open; too high is He for the partners they attribute to Him!" {The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 23, verses 91-92}

Peace be upon you.

If he's not sneaky, then the evidence for evolution must mean exactly what it seems to mean. That is, it must point to the truth that evolution happened and continues to happen.

 

[Ghostaka]

If he's not sneaky, then the evidence for evolution mean exactly what it seems to mean. That is, it must point to the truth that evolution happened and continues to happen.

How so (?); when Allah has specifically mentioned, in the Torah, Gospel and Qur'an that He had created Adam (PBUH) Himself (physically). How can you say that you know when you have no scripture from Allah to show otherwise?

Allah knows best.

Peace be upon you.

 

[painted wolf]

And why do you perceive it as deception?

well... if Creator is changing things in my lab and making it look natural... how am I to know it wasn't natural? I can understand Creator setting up the process of evolution to work as it does, so that things are able to change as their world changes... but why would he change things in my lab, in such a way as to be indistinguishable from nature?
And then why have things in nature do the same thing and provide more support for it being natural?

Allah is the Creator of all things. There are things that we humans do not know/comprehend about how Allah creates.

I don't dispute that... that is half the fun of being an evolutionary biologist.
You get to see little peaks into the process.

Allah isn't "tricking' anyone. If we something that is still a theory/relatively unknown to Allah's creation and then it does not fit to our findings, it is due to our lack of knowledge. Don't know if I'm being clear :cover: do you get what I mean?

I'm trying to... but it can be frustrating when you have someone like Fatihah constantly dismissing any evidence and insinuating that you are lying...

I know that is not what you are doing... and I think for the most part we agree on what is going on... but we are getting tangled up in details.

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

How so (?); when Allah has specifically mentioned, in the Torah, Gospel and Qur'an that He had created Adam (PBUH) Himself (physically). How can you say that you know when you have no scripture from Allah to show otherwise?

Allah knows best.

I still don't see how this discounts evolution... but then my faith doesn't make a lot of distinction between the creator and the process.

wa:do

 

[Sunstone]

How can you say that you know when you have no scripture from Allah to show otherwise?

Assuming your god exists, then his scriptures are his creation, not any book written in a language of men.

 

[Fatihah]

/QUOTE Autodidact] And that's exactly what we do see, when we look at the evidence.(End Quote)

Response: Right. And when you do, you don't see anything evolve into another species. Therefore, you have no proof. Just a belief.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Assuming your god exists, then his scriptures are his creation, not any book written in a language of men.

Isn't it odd that those who extol the wonders of the natural world and trumpet same as evidence of the "glory of god" recoil in horror at what knowledge of the "wonder" truly reveals.

They fall back on words in some ancient text as proof when the "work" they say their god did shows something quite different from what they imagine it should.

 

[darkendless]

I can't believe the world still has such debates over evolution. I understand that the church often involves itself in slowing down the advancement on science. Modern science is young, theology is as old as time itself (as far as we know). However, what does the church (no matter which church: muslims, christians, anyone really) stand to gain by denying the undeniable? Science does not need religion to advance, free minds are always avaliable to take up the challenge of looking into our past. The evidence in evolution is there for anyone who is able to open their eyes, of course, without the blindfold of religion.

It pains me to even try to understand why religion attempts to block attempts to look back? Evolutionary studies in no way endanger the human race (unlike other scientific experiments, partical accelerators are popular) nor negates God. Is religion afraid that the puzzle is becomming too complete? I really cannot understand efforts to block harmless science.

Another thing that puzzles me, is when we discuss evolution, why is it that some of us must first give in to "god existing" in order to have a conversation. I wonder why its not a 2 wat street, i've never had an evolutionary discussion with a theist without first having to accept that there is a God when it in no way changes the facts, it just drops the level of the discussion from intellectual to philosophical and unscientific.

 

[Fatihah]

[

And why should that be?

bwt, just curious; what verses in your fable book mention bacteria?

Response: Why should that be? Because that's the only way you know something evolved. By seeing it happen. How else can you know?

As for the verse, no verse mentions bacteria. However, as explained in the verses in post 1313, Allah says that there are signs within his creation to know how they came into existence. Once a person analyzes creation, they will come to learn of all matter and organisms, including bacteria.

 

[Fatihah]

No, it requires an assimilated mass of evidence. To use my earlier analogy, it's like a detective approaching the scene of a crime and trying to piece it together.

Response: You can't know the color of something without seeing it.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

Response: You can't know the color of something without seeing it.

Actually you can. Its called analyzing the molecules and noting which spectra of light that it absorbs. Whichever part of the spectra is left unabsorbed is going to determine which color our eyes will see it as.

MTF

 

[Fatihah]

a couple more examples for you...
Nylon-eating bacteria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
E. coli long-term evolution experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

wa:do

Response: An example for you:

Allah says in the qur'an:

"Verily, in the heavens and the earth are Signs for those who believe

And in your own creation and that of all the creatures which He spreads are Signs for a people who posses firm faith" ch.45:3,4

Also we read: "See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it? That surely, is easy for Allah

Say, Travel in the earth and see how he originated the creation. Then will Allah create the second creation. Surely, Allah has the power over all things" ch.29:19,20

Here we understand that Allah is the creator so all diversity was created by him. Originated by him. Then we are specifically told that in every one of Allah's creation is a Sign that let's us know how it was created. Therefore, if evolution was the cause, we all would be able to "SEE" it

 

[Fatihah]

Actually you can. Its called analyzing the molecules and noting which spectra of light that it absorbs. Whichever part of the spectra is left unabsorbed is going to determine which color our eyes will see it as.

MTF

Response: A process which requires sight.

 

[painted wolf]

What part of the evidence are you unable to see?
They watched this population of bacteria evolve... that is seeing it happen.

Other species have been seen to evolve over time as well... the Grant's for example have been watching a population of finches on the Galapagos islands since the 1960's... they have seen them change over time with their own eyes.

Unless Allah is tricking their eyes... evolution has been seen.

wa:do

 

[Fatihah]

What part of the evidence are you unable to see?
They watched this population of bacteria evolve... that is seeing it happen.

Other species have been seen to evolve over time as well... the Grant's for example have been watching a population of finches on the Galapagos islands since the 1960's... they have seen them change over time with their own eyes.

Unless Allah is tricking their eyes... evolution has been seen.

wa:do

Response: "Narrated By Abdullah

The moon was cleft asunder while we were in the company of the prophet and it became two parts. The prophet said, 'Witness, Witness. (The miracle) Sahih Bukhari Volume 6 Book 60 number 388

Here we see that people saw a miracle of Muhammad in which he split the moon. So why is your account true and mine false?

 

[ManTimeForgot]

Response: A process which requires sight.

Really I wasn't aware that hearing my computer tell me that the results of spectrographic analysis resulted in frequencies of light 800 to 550 THz absorbed and that 520 to 400 THz absorbed and that this therefore requires the 549 THz to 521THz range to be reflected means that the object under examination will appear Green to the human eye.


Sorry but no matter what way you shake it one does not need to see something to know what color it is.

MTF