EVOLUTION, what a lie.

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE Odion]I'm pretty sure they didn't, considering they are from breeding specific qualities, and for example, the dachshund is supposed to be as recent as the 1700s.

If the dachshund were for example, from the beginning of time, how would you explain the difference in skin tone between humans in Africa and in Europe, and in the Middle East and China, for example - all come from one man according to Islam, so why are there different skin tones?(End quote)

Response: Making different skin tones is not difficult for Allah. It is well within his power to do so. All He has to do is will it into existence.

(Quote Odion)
Which one do you think makes more sense though? God using evolution, bringing about slow change, or suddenly saying "BE!" and everything appears?(End quote)

Response: The latter. Allah reveals clear signs within nature for us to know it's creation. Yes, we all evolve and we can see that everyday easily. That is a clear sign that no one can deny. Neither of us looked the same as we did when we were a child. But when asked for a sign that a species evolves into another, I'm told to go to London and look at a mosquito. That is not a clear sign.

 

[Autodidact]

Response: There's only one definition. And a species evolving into another has never happened, nor has anyone seen it happen. So the evidence does not prove that such things happened.

There's the statement. Where's the proof?

 

[Autodidact]

[QUOTE Odion]I'm pretty sure they didn't, considering they are from breeding specific qualities, and for example, the dachshund is supposed to be as recent as the 1700s.

If the dachshund were for example, from the beginning of time, how would you explain the difference in skin tone between humans in Africa and in Europe, and in the Middle East and China, for example - all come from one man according to Islam, so why are there different skin tones?(End quote)

Response: Making different skin tones is not difficult for Allah. It is well within his power to do so. All He has to do is will it into existence.

(Quote Odion)
Which one do you think makes more sense though? God using evolution, bringing about slow change, or suddenly saying "BE!" and everything appears?(End quote)

Response: The latter. Allah reveals clear signs within nature for us to know it's creation. Yes, we all evolve and we can see that everyday easily. That is a clear sign that no one can deny. Neither of us looked the same as we did when we were a child. But when asked for a sign that a species evolves into another, I'm told to go to London and look at a mosquito. That is not a clear sign.

Right. An actual example of a new species coming into existence is not evidence that new species coming into existence, in Fatihahland.

 

[Fatihah]

O.K., just to use a single well-known example, the Golden Retriever. Are you saying that this breed of dog was independently created whole and separate in ancient times directly by Allah speaking it, and it was so?

Response: I can't tell you the exact specific kind of dog that was first created. There is a such thing called mix-breed. The golden retriever could be just that. A mix-breed, not evolution.

 

[Breathe]

Response: Making different skin tones is not difficult for Allah. It is well within his power to do so. All He has to do is will it into existence.

I'm dissapointed with this answer. I would have expected something about UV rays and melanin and wotnot, not "All He has to do is will it".

Yes, we all evolve and we can see that everyday easily. That is a clear sign that no one can deny.

That's a good start!

But when asked for a sign that a species evolves into another, I'm told to go to London and look at a mosquito. That is not a clear sign.

But you have a more than clear sign, you still have evidence of evolution occuring because of a change in mosquitos that live in the London underground.

You're not going to get a monkey suddenly talking and walking within the next 10 years or anything like that, because evolution is millions of tiny baby steps. It isn't against God nor a hellworthy creed, but to deny God's capability of using evolution is quite insulting, is it not?

 

[Fatihah]

No, it is not.

Response: Yes, it is.

 

[Autodidact]

Response: I can't tell you the exact specific kind of dog that was first created. There is a such thing called mix-breed. The golden retriever could be just that. A mix-breed, not evolution.

Didn't you tell Odion that every breed of dog was separately created? The Golden Retriever is a breed of dog. Therefore it must have been separately created. (simple logic: All A's are x. B is an A. Therefore B is x.) Did you want to retract or change your earlier statement? The Golden Retriever is not a mix-breed. It is a purebreed, recognized by the AKA, fitting any reasonable definition of breed.

But if you prefer to use another example, we can. How about the Boston Terrier? Collie? German Shepherd? I'm not particular.

 

[Fatihah]

Prove those people were lying.
Prove all those publications are false. Prove that the factual evidence is wrong!
You are making bold statements of what is and isn't proof but you are offering none yourself.

You are bending and twisting like a sheet in the wind... anything you don't accept is not 'proof' yet you refuse to say what you will accept as 'proof'...

So where is your 'proof'?

wa:do

Response: All says in the qur'an:

"Verily, in the heavens and the earth are Signs for those who believe

And in your own creation and that of all the creatures which He spreads are Signs for a people who posses firm faith" ch.45:3,4

Also we read: "See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it? That surely, is easy for Allah

Say, Travel in the earth and see how he originated the creation. Then will Allah create the second creation. Surely, Allah has the power over all things" ch.29:19,20

"And thus do we make clear the Signs and that they may return" ch.7:174

Here we understand that Allah is the creator so all diversity was created by him. Originated by him. We are also told that He repeats the creation, not create another. Then we are specifically told that in every one of Allah's creation is a Sign that let's us know how it was created. Therefore, if evolution was the cause, we all would be able to "SEE" it clearly and it would be clear and easy for us to know so within His creation. That is not the case, therefore it is indeed a lie.

 

[Jose Fly]

Fatihah: No one has ever seen a species evolve!

Everyone else: Sure they have. Here are several published scientific papers describing the evolution of new species.

Fatitah: Those scientists are lying...every one of them.

Everyone else: How do you know?

Fatihah: Because new species evolving is impossible. Therefore, no one can have ever seen a new species evolve, and anyone who says they have is a liar.

Jose Fly: Actually, I've seen the evolution of a new species of Goatsbeard here in Eastern Washington.

Fatihah: You're a liar.

Jose Fly: How do you know?

Fatihah: Because new species evolving is impossible. Therefore, no one can have ever seen a new species evolve, and anyone who says they have is a liar. Therefore, you are a liar.

Jose Fly: *shrug*

Fatihah: So I guess no one can provide proof of new species evolving! I win!




And round and round it goes......

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE Odion]

But you have a more than clear sign, you still have evidence of evolution occuring because of a change in mosquitos that live in the London underground.(End quote)

Response: You can't have evidence of something that didn't happen.

(Quote Odion)
You're not going to get a monkey suddenly talking and walking within the next 10 years or anything like that, because evolution is millions of tiny baby steps. It isn't against God nor a hellworthy creed, but to deny God's capability of using evolution is quite insulting, is it not?(End quote)

Response: No one said that Allah couldn't do it, however Allah didn't do it. Allah does not create through a process like ToE. He would have made it clear to all of us. And saying so would contridict the qur'an as Allah cleary says in chapter 29:19 that He originates His creation than repeats it, not create another one.

 

[Breathe]

Response: You can't have evidence of something that didn't happen.

But... there's evidence right in front of you. If you can't be bothered to research into it, it's you who are wrong. I suggest you research into the London Underground mosquitos and wotnot before you say they are fake and it didn't happen.

Response: No one said that Allah couldn't do it, however Allah didn't do it. Allah does not create through a process like ToE. He would have made it clear to all of us. And saying so would contridict the qur'an

There's a statement. Where's the proof?

Allah cleary says in chapter 29:19 that He originates His creation than repeats it, not create another one.

That could easily be a way of explaining what evolution is to a pre-evolutionary society. He originates His creation (big bang) and then repeats it (with minor changes each time, thus ToE)?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Response: Yes, it is.

Sadly, you have zero credibility when it comes to addressing such things as scientific method, but I'm more than willing to leave you wallowing in ignorance ...

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE Autodidact]Didn't you tell Odion that every breed of dog was separately created? The Golden Retriever is a breed of dog. Therefore it must have been separately created. (simple logic: All A's are x. B is an A. Therefore B is x.) Did you want to retract or change your earlier statement? The Golden Retriever is not a mix-breed. It is a purebreed, recognized by the AKA, fitting any reasonable definition of breed.(End Quote)

Response: I never said it was a mix-breed.

(Quote Autodidact)
But if you prefer to use another example, we can. How about the Boston Terrier? Collie? German Shepherd? I'm not particular.(End Quote)

Response: I'm fine with the example above.

 

[Autodidact]

O.K., so what you're saying is that Allah created Golden Retrievers before our time, whole, separate, and they have existed since then unchanged? Is that right?

 

[Autodidact]

Fatihah:

So every species now in existence was magically poofed into existence by Allah a long, long, time ago, and no new species ever come into existence, is that your position?

 

[ManTimeForgot]

Fatinah: Until you do those tests I proposed you do for yourself no one here is going to take you seriously. You see here in the States we have a saying: Put up or Shut up. Are you going to put your money where your mouth is and go out and do tests and try to show us that natural selection/evolution doesn't occur? Or are you going to continue to sit here and blather about how "there's no proof?"


You can scream: "Where's the Proof? Where's the Proof?" all you want. But you know what? There's no proof you actually exist. You could be some horrible figment of my imagination set about to torment me. You could be some extra-terrestrial torture program inserted into my brain. Want to try proving to me you actually exist?

How about we do a little test about "hearsay evidence?" Prove to yourself that you need food to survive. Have you ever actually done the test? Have you tried going without food until you die? Didn't think so. So you have gone by word of mouth that you will die if you go without food for too long... So let's do a little experiement. You go without food indefinitely from now on and prove to yourself that you need food to live.


Your need for absolute proof in an imperfect universe is childish at best. The only things that have "absolute proof" are tautologies and contradictions, and that is because they are self-evident; they are equal with their proof because they are their own proof. A equals A is absolutely true. A does not equal A is absolutely false. Asking for absolute proof at any level of existence is akin to asking for a tautology or contradiction to show its proof, and that quite simply is impossible. Anything worth knowing doesn't require a tautology to prove it because tautologies only prove really simple self-evident things. And contradiction doesn't occur in nature; You can make assumptions and find out they are contradicted by evidence, but no where in nature is there an actual contradiction.


Of course it does bear mentioning that no where in the Qu'ran is there absolute proof of any kind. Prove to me that any of the words contained therein are the Words of God. Prove to me that anything that is said therein actually happened. Prove to me that following the Qu'ran actually leads people (as in more than one person) to a moral, just, and loving life. Prove to me that believing the Qu'ran leads to communion or contact with the divine. Prove to me that believing the Qu'ran leads to paradise after death.

Can you honestly say you can do any of these things? Or is it all just "word of mouth?"

MTF

 

[Breathe]

Response: I never said it was a mix-breed.

Um, yes you did...

Response: I can't tell you the exact specific kind of dog that was first created. There is a such thing called mix-breed. The golden retriever could be just that. A mix-breed, not evolution.

(Page 165, Post 1644, "EVOLUTION, what a lie." thread)

Changed your mind already?
Why is it you seem to do this a lot, say something and then claim you never did..?

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE Odion]But... there's evidence right in front of you. If you can't be bothered to research into it, it's you who are wrong. I suggest you research into the London Underground mosquitos and wotnot before you say they are fake and it didn't happen.(End quote)

Response: And how exactly do you know that it's true?

(Quote Odion)
There's a statement. Where's the proof?(End Quote)

Response: You've just quoted and read chapter 29:19 of the qur'an yourself.

(Quote Odion)
That could easily be a way of explaining what evolution is to a pre-evolutionary society. He originates His creation (big bang) and then repeats it (with minor changes each time, thus ToE)?(End quote)

Response: ToE is not repeating the creation, it's making another one. So the verse does not mean that.

 

[Valjean]

I can just picture the good old days.
Packs of yipping Chihuahuas chasing down Cornish game hens. Herds of Holsteins grazing on the savannas...

 

[Fatihah]

Sadly, you have zero credibility when it comes to addressing such things as scientific method, but I'm more than willing to leave you wallowing in ignorance ...

Response: Likewise.