Explain this logically christians....

[waitasec]

You can see it any way you like.
Discussing personal opinions is idle talk in my book.

i guess you haven't figured out why you have developed the personal opinions you have...





it's pretty clear you haven't.

 

[Copernicus]

Sure I could satisfy your curiosity but have no inclination of doing so . That's just idle talk serving no purpose.

So you quoted Leviticus, implying that you had a serious contribution to make to the discussion, but you ran away the moment you were asked to elaborate on it. Your instinct was probably right then. Your comment was not something worth defending.

 

[Beta]

So you quoted Leviticus, implying that you had a serious contribution to make to the discussion, but you ran away the moment you were asked to elaborate on it. Your instinct was probably right then. Your comment was not something worth defending.

I mentioned Leviticus in connection with the Sabbath you chose to ignore expecting me to jump in defence of whatever else you throw at me. No thank you ! I don't respond to attacks set out to discredit and destroy. :no:

 

[waitasec]

I mentioned Leviticus in connection with the Sabbath you chose to ignore expecting me to jump in defence of whatever else you throw at me. No thank you ! I don't respond to attacks set out to discredit and destroy. :no:

that happens when you adhere to double standards...

 

[Kathryn]

As a Christian, I believe that we don't have a full understanding of free will and how that works into God's overall plan for both now, and the future. All I can do is live as responsible a life as possible. I do believe I can and do make decisions, on a daily basis. So I know that free will in some capacity exists. As to whether or not free will will exist after death falls into that unknown category - in fact most of what will happen after death falls into that category. Do I believe in heaven? Yes. Do I have a clear mental picture of what it will be like? No. Do I know who will be there? No. But I do hope that I will be there.

For the record, I would follow Christian principles whether there was an afterlife or not. My life here works better when I follow those principles, and I and those around me are happier.

 

[Frank Merton]

As a Christian, I believe that we don't have a full understanding of free will and how that works into God's overall plan for both now, and the future. All I can do is live as responsible a life as possible. I do believe I can and do make decisions, on a daily basis. So I know that free will in some capacity exists. As to whether or not free will will exist after death falls into that unknown category - in fact most of what will happen after death falls into that category. Do I believe in heaven? Yes. Do I have a clear mental picture of what it will be like? No. Do I know who will be there? No. But I do hope that I will be there.

For the record, I would follow Christian principles whether there was an afterlife or not. My life here works better when I follow those principles, and I and those around me are happier.

Thank you for your very good message explaining your approach to your faith; I think that sort of open admission that not all the questions that people have can be answered is healthy.

Free will is a real puzzle to me. I think we have it -- from introspective meditation -- but how we have it in a world of material causation is a real puzzle. And if there is not material causation, then free will would resolve to something random, uncaused, which would hardly be "will."

I don't believe in Heaven; I am inclined to think my life spirit, but not my personal existence, is reborn in a cycle of continuous rebirth. This is not a good thing, but seems inevitable. It makes more sense to me than some ethereal Heaven.

Happiness, of course, is a good thing, and you are right that observing good moral principles enhances happiness for everyone. I would just say that even if this were not so, we should still do right, for no more reason than that it is right.

 

[Commoner]

As a Christian, I believe that we don't have a full understanding of free will and how that works into God's overall plan for both now, and the future. All I can do is live as responsible a life as possible. I do believe I can and do make decisions, on a daily basis. So I know that free will in some capacity exists. As to whether or not free will will exist after death falls into that unknown category - in fact most of what will happen after death falls into that category. Do I believe in heaven? Yes. Do I have a clear mental picture of what it will be like? No. Do I know who will be there? No. But I do hope that I will be there.

For the record, I would follow Christian principles whether there was an afterlife or not. My life here works better when I follow those principles, and I and those around me are happier.

Can you name one of these principles that you as a christian follow that I as a non-christian don't? And what exactly is the difference between how you describe your "belief" in heaven and what we would simply describe as "hope". As in, I hope this will be a good day for me...

You've quite masterfully avoided addressing the actual issue, you know that, right?

 

[Commoner]

Thank you for your very good message explaining your approach to your faith; I think that sort of open admission that not all the questions that people have can be answered is healthy.

Free will is a real puzzle to me. I think we have it -- from introspective meditation -- but how we have it in a world of material causation is a real puzzle. And if there is not material causation, then free will would resolve to something random, uncaused, which would hardly be "will."

I don't believe in Heaven; I am inclined to think my life spirit, but not my personal existence, is reborn in a cycle of continuous rebirth. This is not a good thing, but seems inevitable. It makes more sense to me than some ethereal Heaven.

Happiness, of course, is a good thing, and you are right that observing good moral principles enhances happiness for everyone. I would just say that even if this were not so, we should still do right, for no more reason than that it is right.

I you haven't read it yet, I suggest Dennett's stuff on free will.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

That is equally true for believers and non-believers, but non-believers have no reason to expect otherwise. The question is how people manage to cling to religious faith when their deity always behaves in a way that is consistent with its non-existence. In a way, that is the entire point of this thread. How does one reconcile God's seeming indifference to suffering?

"God's seeming indifference to suffering?" Yes it does seem that way. But the way things seem and how they actually are are two very different things.

 

[Koldo]

"God's seeming indifference to suffering?" Yes it does seem that way. But the way things seem and how they actually are are two very different things.

That is out of question. You pretty much made an useless comment on something that is already implied in Copernicus post.
Answer the question Copernicus made then : "How does one reconcile God's seeming indifference to suffering?".

 

[Copernicus]

"God's seeming indifference to suffering?" Yes it does seem that way. But the way things seem and how they actually are are two very different things.

How different are they in this case?

As Koldo pointed out, you avoided answering the question.

 

[Copernicus]

I mentioned Leviticus in connection with the Sabbath you chose to ignore expecting me to jump in defence of whatever else you throw at me. No thank you ! I don't respond to attacks set out to discredit and destroy. :no:

You did mention Leviticus in connection with the Sabbath, and my response was to ask you to explain the connection in light of other things said in Leviticus. It appears to me that you will cherry-pick passages from the Bible that suit you and discard all the rest. If we agree that Leviticus is full of nonsensical advice, it undermines your claim that what Leviticus says about the sabbath has any merit.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

That is out of question. You pretty much made an useless comment on something that is already implied in Copernicus post.
Answer the question Copernicus made then : "How does one reconcile God's seeming indifference to suffering?".

You realize that he's not indifferent to suffering, perhaps? If She's really not indifferent to suffering, then the question is nil. Just because something happened doesn't mean God did it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You realize that he's not indifferent to suffering, perhaps? If She's really not indifferent to suffering, then the question is nil. Just because something happened doesn't mean God did it.

If God is fully sovereign, then everything that happens is at least God's will, even if God doesn't do it himself.

Edit: and we get back to the problem of evil. If God's not indifferent to suffering, then why all the suffering?

 

[Beta]

You did mention Leviticus in connection with the Sabbath, and my response was to ask you to explain the connection in light of other things said in Leviticus. It appears to me that you will cherry-pick passages from the Bible that suit you and discard all the rest. If we agree that Leviticus is full of nonsensical advice, it undermines your claim that what Leviticus says about the sabbath has any merit.

And why did you not respond to the subject in question instead of going on to other points in Leviticus you have no genuine interst of discussing given your stance on God and the Bible ?
You have no idea what I observe and believe yet are quick to accuse and condemn.
You don't want to discuss but find fault to which I don't respond.:no:

 

[Koldo]

You realize that he's not indifferent to suffering, perhaps? If She's really not indifferent to suffering, then the question is nil. Just because something happened doesn't mean God did it.

Do keep in mind we are talking about the Christian God here. The christian God is , at least, omnipotent and omniscient.

If such God exists, and he is not indifferent to our suffering, then why do we suffer? This is the main point of the question.

 

[Beta]

Do keep in mind we are talking about the Christian God here. The christian God is , at least, omnipotent and omniscient.

If such God exists, and he is not indifferent to our suffering, then why do we suffer? This is the main point of the question.

Why do we suffer ?
Human disobedience to God's Commandments causes all our ills.
No one can deny that God has repeatedly admonished man for 6000 years to obey him. God has allowed us free will to do so but we have failed as can be seen in our sufferings. This is the result of not living God's ways.
The reason God has not up to now seriously stepped into our troubles is that man was allowed 6 days (6000 years) to do our own thing - to obey or not to obey Ex.20v9. Now our time is almost up and THEN God will step in.v10.

 

[AntEmpire]

Why do we suffer ?
Human disobedience to God's Commandments causes all our ills.

God put man, two magic death-trees, and a lying snake in the same place. Do you think god is dumb? No, god knew what would happen. It was god's will to damn man and thus create this world of suffering.

 

[PolyHedral]

Human disobedience to God's Commandments causes all our ills.

Our ills are caused directly by the laws of physics. Very little of them, if any, stem from any sort of human action.

 

[Beta]

God put man, two magic death-trees, and a lying snake in the same place. Do you think god is dumb? No, god knew what would happen. It was god's will to damn man and thus create this world of suffering.

oooops , thought one was the tree of LIFE.
Didn't God command the man NOT to eat of the death tree (as you call it) ??? But mankind did and consequently disobeyed the commandment. Was man (or woman) compelled to disobey ? No - they used their own free will Gen 3v6.
What mankind should have learnt by now (6000 years of suffering later) is not to disobey God if we want all to be well with us.