Explain this logically christians....

[Koldo]

Where no oxen are, the manger is clean. You can't have an ox without ox poop. Nobody like ox poop, but you really like the ox when it pulls your crop to market for you. It is impossible for good to exist without evil. They both define each other. Take one, and you take both.

First, God being omnipotent and omniscient could create ox poops with no smell that evaporate after 10 seconds.

Second, i don't buy the idea that every good needs an evil to exist. If evil didn't exist then good would simply be the default state. Only the good dependant on suffering would cease to exist, because it would be unnecessary.

 

[ninerbuff]

I'm so glad somebody is doing alright. I must be having your share of suffering - but I don't blame you ! Good luck to you .

Thanks, but I believe everyone can do alright. It has a lot to do with attitude towards situations and how I can be better.
My most trying time in life was when I sold vacuums door to door, on straight commission for more than 10 years. You think Mormons got doors slammed in there faces? I learned from doing it that it wasn't a personal thing against me and that my good attitude helped get me through the tough times.
Lol, today I will listen to any pitch at a door out of respect for understanding what they are doing and I implore others to do the same. They are working people like any other and not drawing unemployment, so give them a chance. Just make sure that they are legit. They should be wearing an identity tag and have a city permit to solicit.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

You can't have one of our regular earthly oxen without poop, but do you really think that God wouldn't be able to solve that problem?

It's not a problem. How many times do I have say it?
Do you not understand the metaphor?

At the very least, even if God couldn't eliminate ox poop altogether, I'm sure he could figure out an ox that poops strawberry-scented gold nuggets or something like that. No?

No. The concept is the same as wiping out the poo altogether.

So then God is as evil as he is good?

The bible says as much, does it not?

Fair enough, and that does solve the problem of evil, but I find this odd coming from a Christian.

Many people, not just Christians, are unwilling to accept that good requires evil to exist. If they allow that, they have to allow themselves to be both good and evil, not entirely evil with only one possibility of being saved, or entirely good with no need to be saved.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

First, God being omnipotent and omniscient could create ox poops with no smell that evaporate after 10 seconds.

As I told penguin, this is the same as taking the poo away altogether.

Second, i don't buy the idea that every good needs an evil to exist. If evil didn't exist then good would simply be the default state. Only the good dependent on suffering would cease to exist, because it would be unnecessary.

If evil did not exist, good would not be the default state. Good would not have any meaning. Try to find an example of something good that does not have an opposite evil. You can't. They are by definition, opposite. Take one away, and the other loses its meaning.
If you want one, you have to have the other. Asking for only one is like asking for a coin with one side. It doesn't exist.

 

[Frank Merton]

First, God being omnipotent and omniscient could create ox poops with no smell that evaporate after 10 seconds.

Second, i don't buy the idea that every good needs an evil to exist. If evil didn't exist then good would simply be the default state. Only the good dependant on suffering would cease to exist, because it would be unnecessary.

What you said fascinates me.

My immediate reaction was that you have to have evil for good to exist; Yin and Yang require each other. Thinking a little more, though, you are right; good could exist without evil. Indeed, maybe evil doesn't exist at all. Maybe evil is an illusion, something we attribute to things we don't like.

Even pain, for example, is good. We interpret it as suffering, but without it we would soon kill ourselves. Still, sometimes the suffering seems to go too far -- beyond what is necessary to motivate fixing the problem. Why do those who have incurable diseases need to have physical suffering too?

 

[PolyHedral]

It's not a problem. How many times do I have say it?
Do you not understand the metaphor?

But it is a problem, because it is entirely redundant and makes taking care of the ox harder.

Try to find an example of something good that does not have an opposite evil.

Helping an old man across the street. Sure, performing the act is good, but it seems extreme to say that ignoring the opportunity is evil.

Asking for only one is like asking for a coin with one side. It doesn't exist.

Mobius disagrees.

 

[Wombat]

If evil did not exist, good would not be the default state. Good would not have any meaning. Try to find an example of something good that does not have an opposite evil. You can't. They are by definition, opposite. Take one away, and the other loses its meaning.
If you want one, you have to have the other. Asking for only one is like asking for a coin with one side. It doesn't exist.

Being opposites would you accept the propisition that 'good' is akin to light and has substance while 'evil' is darkness, the absense of light and has no substance?

I believe you are correct in asserting "Take one away, and the other loses its meaning" and the notion carries further-
Remove one evil (and its corresponding good) and all you achieve is raising the remaining evils to primary status. i,e. Being born into a world devoid of illness and violence you are still left confronted with the sufferings and evils of unrequited love, jealousy, infidelity....There simply is no cut off point that will eliminate evil.

The same theme was pursued in-
Are Atheist parents ‘Mini Gods’?
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/111972-atheist-parents-mini-gods.html

 

[Commoner]

Being opposites would you accept the propisition that 'good' is akin to light and has substance while 'evil' is darkness, the absense of light and has no substance?

I believe you are correct in asserting "Take one away, and the other loses its meaning" and the notion carries further-
Remove one evil (and its corresponding good) and all you achieve is raising the remaining evils to primary status. i,e. Being born into a world devoid of illness and violence you are still left confronted with the sufferings and evils of unrequited love, jealousy, infidelity....There simply is no cut off point that will eliminate evil.

The same theme was pursued in-
Are Atheist parents ‘Mini Gods’?
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/111972-atheist-parents-mini-gods.html

Obviously, if you accepted the proposition that everything that is a result "below average" or "below the expected value" is evil and conversly that everything above the "expected value" is good, then that holds true. However, most people don't tend to think of things that are close to 0 EV as either good or evil. It's only when a result is significantly far away from the mean that we tend to think of things as "good" or "evil". For instance, getting decaff instead of regular coffee isn't generally what we would consider "evil". An avalanche killing 20 children is.

So, eliminating the "outliers", reducing the variance doesn't need to shift the mean average by which we determine if something is above or below ev and it doesn't cause us to adapt and find "new evils", because the remaining "below ev" and "above ev" outcomes are measured relative to the mean value (which stays the same), not relative to the "extreme outcomes" (which are now relatively less extreme). So - yes, there is a cut-off point.

There is also a difference between events that are "unavoidable" and events that are a result of stupidity. Driving while drunk - stupid. Getting killed by a drunk driver - unavoidable. We can definitely do without one of those, no?

 

[Kathryn]

Can you name one of these principles that you as a christian follow that I as a non-christian don't? And what exactly is the difference between how you describe your "belief" in heaven and what we would simply describe as "hope". As in, I hope this will be a good day for me...

I don't know what principles you follow. I don't know you.

I've never said that Christianity has higher moral standards than some other faiths. In fact, I like the fact that so many religious faiths share so many moral values. It's indicative that there IS an inherent concept of "right and wrong" built into humans. I like that.

My moral values are a part of my religious faith. Period.

As for my belief in heaven - you can call it hope, or belief or whatever. I know that I BELIEVE that there is an afterlife and that my faith in God will be rewarded in that afterlife. I believe this reward is not based on my own merit, but on God's grace.

I believe. I also hope. Those two words and concepts are similar, but not identical.

Hope:
1. ( sometimes plural ) a feeling of desire for something and confidence in the possibility of its fulfilment: his hope for peace was justified ; their hopes were dashed 2. a reasonable ground for this feeling: there is still hope 3. a person or thing that gives cause for hope 4. a thing, situation, or event that is desired: my hope is that prices will fall

Hope | Define Hope at Dictionary.com

belief (bɪˈliːf) — n 1. a principle, proposition, idea, etc, accepted as true 2. opinion; conviction 3. religious faith 4. trust or confidence, as in a person or a person's abilities, probity, etc

Belief | Define Belief at Dictionary.com

You've quite masterfully avoided addressing the actual issue, you know that, right?

Nope, that that's not my intention. Apparently you simply can't connect the dots.

 

[Koldo]

If evil did not exist, good would not be the default state. Good would not have any meaning. Try to find an example of something good that does not have an opposite evil. You can't. They are by definition, opposite. Take one away, and the other loses its meaning.
If you want one, you have to have the other. Asking for only one is like asking for a coin with one side. It doesn't exist.

I disagree. Good would not be labeled good because it would be the default position,but it would still exist, nonetheless. Love is a good example of what doesn't need an evil side to exist. Oh, by the way, even if evil needs to exist due to evil being part of God's nature it doesn't mean that it has to be experienced by us.

What you said fascinates me.

My immediate reaction was that you have to have evil for good to exist; Yin and Yang require each other. Thinking a little more, though, you are right; good could exist without evil. Indeed, maybe evil doesn't exist at all. Maybe evil is an illusion, something we attribute to things we don't like.

Even pain, for example, is good. We interpret it as suffering, but without it we would soon kill ourselves. Still, sometimes the suffering seems to go too far -- beyond what is necessary to motivate fixing the problem. Why do those who have incurable diseases need to have physical suffering too?

That is one of the big problems. Unequal suffering is what bothers me the most, because if we all suffered equally through our lives i wouldn't mind it as much as i do now. But i could go even a little beyond that point. God could have created us with bodies that wouldn't need to feel pain to survive.

 

[Commoner]

I don't know what principles you follow. I don't know you.

I've never said that Christianity has higher moral standards than some other faiths. In fact, I like the fact that so many religious faiths share so many moral values. It's indicative that there IS an inherent concept of "right and wrong" built into humans. I like that.

My moral values are a part of my religious faith. Period.

You misundestood - that was exactly what I was asking. What are the values that are attributable to your faith? What are the principles that are not to be found without faith? Something a non-christian would not be expected to adhere to because of their non-faith? Or even something that "faith" would be one (good), not necessarily the only, way of discovering?

As for my belief in heaven - you can call it hope, or belief or whatever. I know that I BELIEVE that there is an afterlife and that my faith in God will be rewarded in that afterlife. I believe this reward is not based on my own merit, but on God's grace.

I believe. I also hope. Those two words and concepts are similar, but not identical.

Hope:
1. ( sometimes plural ) a feeling of desire for something and confidence in the possibility of its fulfilment: his hope for peace was justified ; their hopes were dashed 2. a reasonable ground for this feeling: there is still hope 3. a person or thing that gives cause for hope 4. a thing, situation, or event that is desired: my hope is that prices will fall

Hope | Define Hope at Dictionary.com

belief (bɪˈliːf) — n 1. a principle, proposition, idea, etc, accepted as true 2. opinion; conviction 3. religious faith 4. trust or confidence, as in a person or a person's abilities, probity, etc

Belief | Define Belief at Dictionary.com

You should know by now how useless copy/pasting dictionary definitions is... My point was, you description sounded more like "hope" than "belief", while understanding perfectly well what both those terms (can) mean.

Ok, so you "accept it as true" (heaven), yet you admit you do not even have a clear undestanding of what it is and therefore cannot even begin to demostrate it's a valid idea - neither is it possible that it had been sufficiently demonstrated to you - or you would have had a clear idea of what it was. Sorry, that seems the ultimate kind of "unresponsible" to me, the only thing worse would be passing that idea on as truth and the only thing worse than that would be promoting that idea as truth to children. As long as we're on the subject of leading responsible lives...

Nope, that that's not my intention. Apparently you simply can't connect the dots.

Apparently, neither can anyone else.

 

[Kathryn]

Apparently, neither can anyone else.

You misundestood - that was exactly what I was asking. What are the values that are attributable to your faith? What are the principles that are not to be found without faith? Something a non-christian would not be expected to adhere to because of their non-faith? Or even something that "faith" would be one (good), not necessarily the only, way of discovering?

I "misunderstood" because this is not at all what you originally asked. Even so, my original answer suffices.

You should know by now how useless copy/pasting dictionary definitions is... My point was, you description sounded more like "hope" than "belief", while understanding perfectly well what both those terms (can) mean.

You're the one who challenged me regarding the difference between hope and belief. I was simply clarifying.

Ok, so you "accept it as true" (heaven), yet you admit you do not even have a clear undestanding of what it is and therefore cannot even begin to demostrate it's a valid idea - neither is it possible that it had been sufficiently demonstrated to you - or you would have had a clear idea of what it was. Sorry, that seems the ultimate kind of "unresponsible" to me, the only thing worse would be passing that idea on as truth and the only thing worse than that would be promoting that idea as truth to children. As long as we're on the subject of leading responsible lives...

I didn't say I didn't have any inkling of what heaven is. I said I don't have a clear understanding of the whole concept. For instance, what it will look like, how we will relate to family and friends, that sort of thing. But I have a very clear understanding and belief that heaven is offered to us after we die, that it is a place where there is no more sorrow, no more pain, no more tears, no evil - that it will be our home and that it is offered to us through God's grace.

That's a belief - not just a hope. And that belief in no way undermines the integrity of my lfe decisions.

 

[waitasec]

I would follow Christian principles whether there was an afterlife or not.

you have christian principles. ok you've established that.

when you label your principles as christian then something out of the ordinary should be evident...do you know what it is?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's not a problem. How many times do I have say it?
Do you not understand the metaphor?

Sure I understand it. I just disagree with it.

I get it: you're saying that evil necessarily comes with good. But so far, you haven't given me any reason to accept it, so I don't.

Actually, I should backtrack: if you want to believe in a god who is incapable of eradicating evil, then fine - that does deal with the problem of evil. However, I don't think this is a god that most people believe in.

The bible says as much, does it not?

Yes and no. The Bible says lots of things. You could probably find verses to support any idea of the nature of God.

Many people, not just Christians, are unwilling to accept that good requires evil to exist. If they allow that, they have to allow themselves to be both good and evil, not entirely evil with only one possibility of being saved, or entirely good with no need to be saved.

I agree that many people don't accept the idea of dualism, but this doesn't mean we should necessarily accept it.

And I think you're mischaracterizing things a bit. Many Christians I know have no problem recognizing that they are "sinners", however, you're going for something different: you're not only saying that evil exists - no argument there, BTW - but you're also saying that evil is necessary.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As a Christian, I believe that we don't have a full understanding of free will and how that works into God's overall plan for both now, and the future. All I can do is live as responsible a life as possible. I do believe I can and do make decisions, on a daily basis. So I know that free will in some capacity exists. As to whether or not free will will exist after death falls into that unknown category - in fact most of what will happen after death falls into that category. Do I believe in heaven? Yes. Do I have a clear mental picture of what it will be like? No. Do I know who will be there? No. But I do hope that I will be there.

Even without a clear idea of heaven, hopefully you can recognize that there are only two possible answers to the question "is there free will in heaven?" As I pointed out before, neither one can be reconciled with the idea that God allows evil because to do otherwise would violate our free will, and God values our free will too much to take it away.

Even if you don't know the answer to the question, do you acknowledge that any possible answer has problematic implications?

For the record, I would follow Christian principles whether there was an afterlife or not. My life here works better when I follow those principles, and I and those around me are happier.

Hmm. I came to the conclusion that - for myself, anyway - I couldn't consider the whole package of Christian principles moral without belief in the supernatural aspects.

For instance, if God isn't really going to render final judgement on humanity, then being meek in the face of injustice means that the injustice will go unpunished and unremedied.

I think quite a bit of Christian moral teaching flows from an idea of trust in God, so without believing in the factual truth of the Christian message, much of it falls apart, IMO.

 

[Kathryn]

you have christian principles. ok you've established that.

when you label your principles as christian then something out of the ordinary should be evident...do you know what it is?

Wow. OK.

I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ - hence the title "Christian."

In addition to following the teachings of Jesus Christ, I also believe the following:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

Hope that clarifies things for you.

 

[AntEmpire]

2Pet.3v8..one day is with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. God is not limited by fixed time and we must become flexible in order to understand God. So we have had 4000 years in the OT and 2000 years in the NT = 6000 years sine Adam.
When God concluded all mankind under sin it's because we would all have done like Adam and Eve thus we are all guilty. We should never think we are better than the next man or woman. Only God can make a person better not ourselves.

2011 ?

He's late

 

[waitasec]

Wow. OK.

I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ - hence the title "Christian."

In addition to following the teachings of Jesus Christ, I also believe the following:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

Hope that clarifies things for you.

no it doesn't. these are not principles.
you call your principles "christian", these are your christian beliefs....
so what rule or standard do abide by that is unique only to the the christian principle? not beliefs.


ps

you say you follow christ's teachings which forms your "christian principles"... so what is so unique about these principles you follow...
what sets these ethical standards apart from an unbeliever?
i don't understand why this is such a hard question to answer. you call yourself a christian, you believe in jesus and claim to follow christian principles, what are they? if you are a christian with christian principles you should be able to answer the question.

 

[Kathryn]

no it doesn't. these are not principles.
you call your principles "christian", these are your christian beliefs....
so what rule or standard do abide by that is unique only to the the christian principle? not beliefs.


ps

you say you follow christ's teachings which forms your "christian principles"... so what is so unique about these principles you follow...
what sets these ethical standards apart from an unbeliever?
i don't understand why this is such a hard question to answer. you call yourself a christian, you believe in jesus and claim to follow christian principles, what are they? if you are a christian with christian principles you should be able to answer the question.

There are many principles which are shared by various groups. For instance, "Don't steal." "Don't murder." "Don't commit adultury." "Treat your neighbor as you would like to be treated." "Love and worship God." Those are all common beliefs shared by many people of many different religious faiths.

Just because they are SHARED, doesn't mean that they are not Christian ALSO.

Truth is truth, regardless of the source. If an atheist also believes "Don't steal" or "Don't commit murder," - well, great. He can call it an atheist principle as well. That doesn't mean it's not a Christian principle.

The reason why I included the Apostle's Creed with my statement is that in addition to those principles which are shared by many people and incorporated into many various religions, I also believe the articles of faith outlined in the Apostle's Creed.

My belief in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, is what supports my attitude of submission to His omnipotent will. It is what gives me peace within my spirit even in the midst of personal turmoil and even tragedy.

My belief in Jesus Christ His only Son our Lord supports my acceptance of His grace and sacrifice and gives me a sense of appreciation for the giving nature of a merciful God - and His Son who understands my own fears, pains, heartaches, joys, etc - the whole human element.

I believe He died, was buried, was resurrected, ascended into heaven, and has gone to prepare a place for us there.

I believe that God can and will judge every human who ever walked this earth - and that He is really the only entity who can judge the human heart perfectly and justly. This manifests itself in my open mindedness and my determination not to judge others harshly - but rather to focus on getting the log out of my own eye rather than the splinter out of yours.

I believe in the comfort and guidance of the Holy Spirit. This strenghtens me when I am weak, and allows me to have the strength to help others.

I believe that God forgives my sins when I am repentant, and that this example is set for me to forgive others when they have wronged me, either intentionally or otherwise. So I try to do so.

I believe in the resurrection of our bodies and in life eternal. This gives me hope and a bouyancy of spirit even in difficult times. This belief manifests itself in my attitude and actions toward others here and now.

This is how my Christian faith underpins my principles. You, and others, may have different reasons for embracing some of the same principles - but these are MY reasons.

 

[waitasec]

There are many principles which are shared by various groups. For instance, "Don't steal." "Don't murder." "Don't commit adultury." "Treat your neighbor as you would like to be treated." "Love and worship God." Those are all common beliefs shared by many people of many different religious faiths.

Just because they are SHARED, doesn't mean that they are not Christian ALSO.

Truth is truth, regardless of the source. If an atheist also believes "Don't steal" or "Don't commit murder," - well, great. He can call it an atheist principle as well. That doesn't mean it's not a Christian principle.

it's a part of the christian principle. but what makes christian principles exclusive to the christian faith?

The reason why I included the Apostle's Creed with my statement is that in addition to those principles which are shared by many people and incorporated into many various religions, I also believe the articles of faith outlined in the Apostle's Creed.

My belief in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, is what supports my attitude of submission to His omnipotent will. It is what gives me peace within my spirit even in the midst of personal turmoil and even tragedy.

is that a principle or a belief?

My belief in Jesus Christ His only Son our Lord supports my acceptance of His grace and sacrifice and gives me a sense of appreciation for the giving nature of a merciful God - and His Son who understands my own fears, pains, heartaches, joys, etc - the whole human element.

I believe He died, was buried, was resurrected, ascended into heaven, and has gone to prepare a place for us there.

I believe that God can and will judge every human who ever walked this earth - and that He is really the only entity who can judge the human heart perfectly and justly. This manifests itself in my open mindedness and my determination not to judge others harshly - but rather to focus on getting the log out of my own eye rather than the splinter out of yours.

I believe in the comfort and guidance of the Holy Spirit. This strenghtens me when I am weak, and allows me to have the strength to help others.

I believe that God forgives my sins when I am repentant, and that this example is set for me to forgive others when they have wronged me, either intentionally or otherwise. So I try to do so.

I believe in the resurrection of our bodies and in life eternal. This gives me hope and a bouyancy of spirit even in difficult times. This belief manifests itself in my attitude and actions toward others here and now.

This is how my Christian faith underpins my principles. You, and others, may have different reasons for embracing some of the same principles - but these are MY reasons.

your beliefs are not your principles.
you seem to be avoiding the question. what principle do you have that non believers do not have...you need to know what principle they don't have in order for you to separate your principles from non believers.