Explain this logically christians....

[Koldo]

Seems we read the Bible differently !

I read what is written, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Well, yes. It'd mean you have an ox working for you.

And nothing would be learned. Not very constructive.

Because there's got to be some limit where an act is so trivial that applying the label "evil" isn't reasonable.

Evil has a very simple definition. You have given it a very complex one, which requires you to make further distinction.

The physically constructable version does, but it's not supposed to.

But it does...whether its supposed to or not is not the issue.

 

[Koldo]

Evil has a very simple definition. You have given it a very complex one, which requires you to make further distinction.

Please do make it clear:
Are you saying that not helping an old person cross the street is evil?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Please do make it clear:
Are you saying that not helping an old person cross the street is evil?

Yes, it is.

 

[waitasec]

Everyone does not reach the same ethical conclusions or opinions. Some people think that premarital sex is morally OK and others believe it's morally wrong. Some people believe that divorce is OK in any circumstances and others believe it is never OK. Some people believe that late term abortion is morally acceptable regardless of the reason, and others believe it is never acceptable for any reason. Then there are all sorts of opinions in between.

correct me if i'm wrong but are these ethical principles or ethical standards?

some ones ethical standards may be abortion is wrong.
if my friend suzy was thinking about having an abortion, which goes against my standards, is it my place to tell her i think it's wrong and she shouldn't have one or
should i stand by her and support her through this difficult time?
the ethical principle is to comfort your friend
the ethical standard is to stand by your opinion on the matter.
am i off?

Hey, I am a Texan. Am I setting myself apart from those who aren't, or am I merely stating a fact about where I live? It depends totally on context. If this were 1862 that would perhaps be a very important distinction. At a sales conference it's just a location regarding where I work.

you are a texan..an american and ultimately a fellow human being...
so how can you set yourself apart from those who apply the same ethical principles as you by labeling it your "christian principles"?

What is all this "setting apart" stuff? Those are your words, not mine. My Christian faith works for me, works in my life, betters my mental, emotional, physical and spiritual state of living.

you labeled your principles as christian, which are the same as mine, ..you set yourself apart with that label....there is a reason it's french bread and there is a reason why its italian bread...so what the reason to call it chrisitan...just because you're a christian....is that is what you are implying when you said

My Christian faith makes me a better person. That doesn't mean it makes me better than anyone ELSE. It merely means that it makes me better than I am without it.

BIG DIFFERENCE.

then why attribute your principles as christian if we have the same principles?

I have no idea what you're capable of. All I know is that I am not worth any more than you are and that my life is no more special or valuable than yours - or anyone else's.

you and i are just as capable to apply ethical principles

Your emotional baggage, not mine. I have no idea where your eternal destination lies. I am not responsible for that, nor am I responsible for judging you.

Carry on.

it's not emotional baggage it's an observation of why you set your principles apart from non believers

I do think it's ironic that you seem so hung up on whether or not I'm judging anyone else - and yet you constantly try to judge MY moral position on things. How many times do I have to tell you that I'm not judging your beliefs - that I'm merely explaining my own position as applied to my own life?

just made an observation as to why someone would say, "i follow my christian principles" when in fact you are following basic ethical principles any normal empathic human being would.
i am not saying that your ethical principles are right or wrong, am i?

My "Christian principles" provide a framework of moral values and a belief system that guides me to be a better person and to make better choices in life than I would if left to rely on my emotions alone, or even my (humanly limited) "rational thought process."

moral values concerns itself with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character. your belief system is founded on the christian belief...
explain to me how it is you and i can both achieve the same things when it comes to our equal capabilities when applying ethical principles?

My faith teaches me to seek wisdom and understanding, but when I do not understand something and simply can't seem to grasp it, that in spite of my lack of understanding, my faith is firm. I believe that God will give me understanding and increased wisdom over time - after all, He has done so in the past.

and my logic and reasoning tells me the same.
what do you think i do when i do not understand something...blame natures indifference, question nature or accept what is, is. maybe a light bulb will light up in the future, and if it does, my wisdom increases over time as well.

I am not trying to be "set apart" and "better" than "unbelievers." My gosh, I don't even use those phrases - they sound foreign to me. Jesus Himself reached out across cultural barriers and clearly lived a life of love and tolerance for sincerity and honesty in any form, though He did have a pretty short fuse for hypocrites.

I try to pattern my life after His example.

it's great to have a mentor. although when someone claims their mentor is god, the creator, the beginning and the end, the reason they are saved...and are more ethical than before, it doesn't add up because you and i are just as equally capable of doing the same ethical things...

so is it really christian principles or the same ethical principles?

 

[waitasec]

Kathryn, in other words, the Christian principles are simply a set of principles. It doesn't mean they are inherently christians, it just means there is a specific set of principles that is a christian set.

So to solve the big discussion when you say "Christian principles", you mean "Christian set of principles".

I suppose that is what you meant.

that makes total sense to me.
koldo, from your perspective, am i not conveying this?

However, i don't think there is just 1 Christian set of principles out there. This is mainly because the definition of Christian is simply someone who follows Jesus' teachings. Some people add Paul's teachings to the mix, for example, which leads to many different Chritian set of principles that share the same root.

absolutely true

 

[Koldo]

Yes, it is.

What do you understand by 'evil'?
Please do define the word 'evil'.

that makes total sense to me.
koldo, from your perspective, am i not conveying this?

Yea, i was just trying to use other words to make her comprehend.
Sometimes a different approach works wonders. Only time will tell though.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

What do you understand by 'evil'?
Please do define the word 'evil'.

Evil is letting something get in the way of doing something you think is right. Be it yourself, or social norms, the evil is the same.

 

[Koldo]

Evil is letting something get in the way of doing something you think is right. Be it yourself, or social norms, the evil is the same.

You have an odd definition for evil.

I will give you the dictionary definition:

[e·vil
adj.e·vil·er, e·vil·est
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.
n.
1. The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
2. That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
3. An evil force, power, or personification.
4. Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.

adv. Archaic In an evil manner.

[Middle English, from Old English yfel; see wap- in Indo-European roots.]
e

vil·ly adv.
e

vil·ness n.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.]

This is the evil we are talking about here.
How does exactly not to help an old person cross the street fits in the description?

 

[OneThatGotAway]

The only way? I can think of lots of better ways than that, and I'm not even omniscient. Nobody here has forgotten the biblical myth of Genesis, but most of us do not believe it. Why should we? It's not the only creation myth that people have ever made up.

I'm sure you can; that is because God has given you the freedom of 'playing god'; however, millions of Jews, Christians, and Muslims outweigh your followers; because they believe that the Holy Book of Genesis has no myths. Your lack of omniscient powers disqualifies you as being an expert on being God.

I have seen lots of religious people try on God's shoes. They try to imagine what God would do when faced with the recalcitrant sinful human race that he created. That truck driver. He was just a drunk. No matter how wrong the man's choice to drink and drive was, the question here is not about him. It is about the victims, who had no choice at all in the matter.

Well, we have something in common; because I too have seen people try to play god to their demise! Why these same hypocrites even fail to take responsiblity for the sins in which they have caused others, blaming God. The drunk driver becomes part of the question if you are blaming God for planning the drunk driver to kill these people. That was neither not part of God's plan for that man to become drunk nor for him to hurt anyone.

If there were not people who thought like this, atheists would not make such a big deal about what a tyrant the God of the Old Testament was. But you really take all that stuff literally. Human beings used to commit horrible atrocities. We read about those in the Bible, and we read that God approved some of those atrocities. After all, a primitive tribe that had just slaughtered its rivals would naturally record the event as sanctioned by their deity. In this case, you approve of the logic of punishing offspring and descendants for sins that they did not personally commit, even if you can come to believe that something so innocuous as Adam and Eve's "sin" merited God's wrath, especially since he knew they were going to disobey his command in the first place. Any way you try to spin that story, God comes off as more evil than his creations, yet you still believe it.

That is because God is not a tyrant. If He were; then you would not be here today. God approves of the righteous destroying evil in every generation. I can't help it if some people enjoys evil more than good. Furthermore, some people love to ignore the truth about God and spin lies about him to this very day. God only punishes those that do evil as well as their offsprings; who enjoy evil as well. Why love evil? Better to believe the true Biblical history about Aedam and his wife; than to believe the lies of men. I see that you elevate evil men as good and the good God as evil; I say that you have it twisted. But, hey, each to its own belief.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

You have an odd definition for evil.

This is the evil we are talking about here.
How does exactly not to help an old person cross the street fits in the description?

Adj # 2 and 5
N # 3 and 4

That's what I see just glancing at it.

 

[Commoner]

Evil is letting something get in the way of doing something you think is right. Be it yourself, or social norms, the evil is the same.

So, letting the girl next door's opinion that we should not have sex get in the way of me having sex with her (which I think would be super right!) is evil?

I knew it!

 

[Copernicus]

I'm sure you can; that is because God has given you the freedom of 'playing god'; however, millions of Jews, Christians, and Muslims outweigh your followers; because they believe that the Holy Book of Genesis has no myths. Your lack of omniscient powers disqualifies you as being an expert on being God.

I have no followers, and I do not claim to be an expert on "being God". I leave that to those who try to tell everyone else what God's "plan" is.

Well, we have something in common; because I too have seen people try to play god to their demise! Why these same hypocrites even fail to take responsiblity for the sins in which they have caused others, blaming God. The drunk driver becomes part of the question if you are blaming God for planning the drunk driver to kill these people. That was neither not part of God's plan for that man to become drunk nor for him to hurt anyone.

Right. So you fancy yourself as someone who knows God's plan and feels some sympathy for God's plight. :sarcastic

That is because God is not a tyrant. If He were; then you would not be here today. God approves of the righteous destroying evil in every generation...

I see that you consider yourself quite a spokesperson for God. That must be what makes you so upset at the thought of others playing God. How dare they?

...I can't help it if some people enjoys evil more than good. Furthermore, some people love to ignore the truth about God and spin lies about him to this very day. God only punishes those that do evil as well as their offsprings; who enjoy evil as well. Why love evil? Better to believe the true Biblical history about Aedam and his wife; than to believe the lies of men. I see that you elevate evil men as good and the good God as evil; I say that you have it twisted. But, hey, each to its own belief.

God should issue you lightning bolts so that you could smite all the people who disappoint you and God. I guess he'll have to do his own smiting, but you can absolve yourself of blame (Oops! I meant God. God will absolve you.) You tried to warn us.

 

[Koldo]

I'm sure you can; that is because God has given you the freedom of 'playing god'; however, millions of Jews, Christians, and Muslims outweigh your followers; because they believe that the Holy Book of Genesis has no myths. Your lack of omniscient powers disqualifies you as being an expert on being God.

We don't need omniscience to imagine a better world. Also, numbers of believers mean nothing at all when it comes down to pure belief.

Well, we have something in common; because I too have seen people try to play god to their demise! Why these same hypocrites even fail to take responsiblity for the sins in which they have caused others, blaming God. The drunk driver becomes part of the question if you are blaming God for planning the drunk driver to kill these people. That was neither not part of God's plan for that man to become drunk nor for him to hurt anyone.

You are not looking at it by the correct angle. God could have prevented the driver from killing those people. We are all responsible for our actions/inactions, however such happens in varying degrees. A dog is not as responsible for its actions as an human is, and an human is not as much responsible for its actions as God is. It is a fact that God ( granted it exists) could have saved those people, but did nothing, and so he is guilty for his omission.

In an analogy, imagine you have two children and your wife is watching over them. Suddenly, one of them picks a knife and is going to stab the other kid in the chest and your wife is watching everything. And then the worst happens, the kid with the knife kills his brother and your wife does nothing at all. She not only didn't prevent the kid but she also didn't call for an ambulance. She did nothing at all, and the kid died. Isn't your wife also responsible for what happened? She could have easily prevented the boy's death. The same goes for God.

That is because God is not a tyrant. If He were; then you would not be here today. God approves of the righteous destroying evil in every generation. I can't help it if some people enjoys evil more than good. Furthermore, some people love to ignore the truth about God and spin lies about him to this very day. God only punishes those that do evil as well as their offsprings; who enjoy evil as well. Why love evil? Better to believe the true Biblical history about Aedam and his wife; than to believe the lies of men. I see that you elevate evil men as good and the good God as evil; I say that you have it twisted. But, hey, each to its own belief.

Do you live in planet Earth?
Do look around, everyone suffers. Believers and non believers.
God is NOT punishing anyone for their beliefs in this planet.

 

[Koldo]

Adj # 2 and 5
N # 3 and 4

That's what I see just glancing at it.

Okay, let us go by parts:

Adj. 2: Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.

Clearly you are not causing ruin, injury or pain to the old person by not helping him/her cross the street.
REFUTED.

Adj. 5: Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.

Just because you didn't help the person it doesn't mean you have anger or spite for him/her.
REFUTED.

N.3: An evil force, power, or personification.

WHAT?! You made me laugh, seriously. Now when i don't help an old person to cross the street i am an evil force?! You can't be serious.
REFUTED

N.4:Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.

How exactly would i be causing suffering, injury or destruction by not helping someone cross the street?!
REFUTED

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Evil has a very simple definition. You have given it a very complex one, which requires you to make further distinction.

My Mom's got a coffee mug with a bunch of computer programming-related quips on it. One of them's stuck with me:

"Every complex problem has a simple, easy-to-understand wrong answer."

Case in point:

Please do make it clear:
Are you saying that not helping an old person cross the street is evil?

Yes, it is.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

So, letting the girl next door's opinion that we should not have sex get in the way of me having sex with her (which I think would be super right!) is evil?

I knew it!

What you want is not always what is right. But I think you knew that already.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

My Mom's got a coffee mug with a bunch of computer programming-related quips on it. One of them's stuck with me:

"Every complex problem has a simple, easy-to-understand wrong answer."

The answer is simple. The solution is the hard part.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Okay, let us go by parts:

Adj. 2: Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.

Clearly you are not causing ruin, injury or pain to the old person by not helping him/her cross the street.
REFUTED.

I did not limit it to injury inflicted on the old person.

Adj. 5:Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.

Just because you didn't help the person it doesn't mean you have anger or spite for him/her.
REFUTED.

Again, I did not limit it to anger towards the old person.

N.3: An evil force, power, or personification.

WHAT?! You made me laugh, seriously. Now when i don't help an old person to cross the street i am an evil force?! You can't be serious.
REFUTED

If that is the way you feel. Of course, I did not limit it to just this event. You did that.

N.4:Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.

How exactly would i be causing suffering, injury or destruction by not helping someone cross the street?!
REFUTED

It may well be the symptom of another cause. Life is not events that are independent of each other. Why do you treat it like it is?

 

[Commoner]

What you want is not always what isright. But I think you knew that already.

Neither is what I think is right always right. Yet that doesn't seem to have made it in your nifty definition of evil. As long as I genuinely believe doing something is right then, by your definition, it is evil to let something get in the way of doing it.

This "evil" is completely dependant upon my beliefs, however warped they might be, and it literally applies to anything from killing a school-bus of children to saving a school-bus of children from certain death and can be applied to anything from events of cosmic significance to events that are too trivial to be described as trivial. That, my fellow RF-er, is the definition of a bad definition.