Faith in Christ is Completely Logical

[savagewind]

Mostly because I don't think he's rationally considered his position. There are lots of people who ascribe to a belief on a purely emotional level and never bother to revisit it again to see if it holds up to critical scrutiny. They liked it once and they figure it's going to be true forever so they never bother with it again. You see those people here and in many other places who can't even consider the possibility that their beliefs are wrong, they've wrapped their entire worldview and personal value around those beliefs being true.

I suspect that's what's happened here.

Why pick out the person on forum who thinks about faith and God the most and say that about him? Because you don't care about looking stupid.

So....mind telling us how old you are?

 

[Cephus]

That's ok. I put it all down long ago. I used to say things exactly like that as well to people that left. It's perfectly fine and true. I was never a Christian as there is no such thing as Christianity.

It's entirely in the cerebral realm and acted out.

Everything is just acted out in the cerebral realm to some degree. I don't know that I'd say there is no such thing as Christianity, it is a very general, generic term for a class of belief systems, but there certainly isn't one single Christianity, otherwise there wouldn't be more than 30,000 distinct sects of it.

 

[Sapiens]

Mostly because I don't think he's rationally considered his position. There are lots of people who ascribe to a belief on a purely emotional level and never bother to revisit it again to see if it holds up to critical scrutiny. They liked it once and they figure it's going to be true forever so they never bother with it again. You see those people here and in many other places who can't even consider the possibility that their beliefs are wrong, they've wrapped their entire worldview and personal value around those beliefs being true.

I suspect that's what's happened here.

I guess that's where I run into trouble, I spend a goodly part of my day trying vainly to keep up on the literature, I am far more invested in being au courant than I am with being correct yesterday.

 

[Sapiens]

Why pick out the person on forum who thinks about faith and God the most and say that about him? Because you don't care about looking stupid.

So....mind telling us how old you are?

I'm sixty-four and I think he is spot on! If he's under twenty, that doubles my respect for him.

 

[Cephus]

Why pick out the person on forum who thinks about faith and God the most and say that about him? Because you don't care about looking stupid.

I'd say it about anyone, the strength of their faith is irrelevant, anyone who has irrational beliefs has irrational beliefs no matter how important those beliefs are to them. The only people who think I'm looking stupid by pointing that out either shares those beliefs or is an accommodationist.

So....mind telling us how old you are?

Older than you I'm sure.

 

[Cephus]

I'm sixty-four and I think he is spot on! If he's under twenty, that doubles my respect for him.

I'm not under 20, I don't even remember my 20s, that was more than half a lifetime ago.

 

[Sapiens]

I'm not under 20, I don't even remember my 20s, that was more than half a lifetime ago.

OK, half respect for you.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Everything is just acted out in the cerebral realm to some degree. I don't know that I'd say there is no such thing as Christianity, it is a very general, generic term for a class of belief systems, but there certainly isn't one single Christianity, otherwise there wouldn't be more than 30,000 distinct sects of it.

Tangiblity manifests through peoples actions, so in that regard it's obviously not cerebral in light that a person acts on it in a physical manner.

There is a discernible relationship between the objective and abstract, and true, it does bring about the fluidity of the Christian ideal by which there is no common, or perhaps more accurately, a central uniformity that if so, and was the case, would have dissolved the variation of denominations and sects that we see.

One of the powerful reasons for that is there is no actual divine communication taking place with a particular God as Christianity alludes to there being one.

 

[Cephus]

I guess that's where I run into trouble, I spend a goodly part of my day trying vainly to keep up on the literature, I am far more invested in being au courant than I am with being correct yesterday.

Exactly. I'm not emotionally invested in holding my beliefs because I really want to hold my beliefs, I constantly test what I believe as new information comes forward and as new things are objectively supported, I will change my beliefs to match. That's why I stopped being a Christian, I finally realized, after refusing to take faith as an answer, that the evidence didn't support the conclusions that Christianity (and other religions) insist on. So I moved on. If it was objectively discovered tomorrow that a god, any god, actually existed in reality, I'd believe it. I might not worship it but certainly I'd have no choice than to believe it was real. This is not something that most hard core theists can do. They don't follow the evidence, they have no clue what the evidence is and refuse to look because the reality of their beliefs simply doesn't matter to them.

I find that sad.

 

[Cephus]

Tangiblity manifests through peoples actions, so in that regard it's obviously not cerebral in light that a person acts on it in a physical manner.

Our beliefs inform our actions, that much is certain, which is another reason to ensure that our beliefs are rational so that our actions will likewise be rational.

There is a discernible relationship between the objective and abstract, and true, it does bring about the fluidity of the Christian ideal by which there is no common, or perhaps more accurately, a central uniformity that if so, and was the case, would have dissolved the variation of denominations and sects that we see.

If you got 10 Christians in the same room, even Christians from the same denomination or the same church, you'd still get 10 different opinions on what their beliefs ought to be. There are over 30,000 different sects of Christianity worldwide, yet if we were honest, there are as many versions as there are Christians, the same goes for Islam, the same goes for Buddhism and Shintoism and every other religion. There isn't a single version of any religion that everyone who professes that religion subscribes to.

One of the powerful reasons for that is there is no actual divine communication taking place with a particular God as Christianity alludes to there being one.

But everyone is supremely convinced that their version, and only their version, is the correct one, which I find strange. You'd think that all they'd have to do is talk to each other to realize that all of them have the same position on the "truth". They can't all be right but they can all be wrong.

 

[savagewind]

One of my best friends is a believer in God and Christ like I am. He is single and I am married. [I realize a friendship like that is possible so please don't chime in about it if you can stand not, but] personally I would be uncomfortable making friends with him if he was not my brother in Christ. I am sure I would not be his penpal if we didn't have Christ in common. So a fine friendship results from my faith in Jesus.

Someone said that friendships and good works can be accomplished just as well or better without faith in God. Maybe for whoever said it but not for me. I find people self oriented. But the few people I meet who love God are refreshing to me.

 

[Serenity7855]

That's ok. I put it all down long ago. I used to say things exactly like that as well to people that left. It's perfectly fine and true. I was never a Christian as there is no such thing as Christianity.

It's entirely in the cerebral realm and acted out.

I disagree that there is no such thing as a Christian. There are three here right now.

You do Christians an honour by saying they are cerebral. The word cerebral gets its meaning from cerebrum, which is Latin for brain. Cerebral people use their brains instead of their hearts and emotions. That means that we make decisions using our intelligence and cold, hard facts, instead of our emotions.

I do not expect someone, who was an acting Christian for thirty years, and in that time failed to be converted by the Holy Ghost, to believe in Christ. You must have been doing something very wrong because God has promised that if we follow his teachings that he will reveal the truth of His marvelous work and wonder.

James 1:5-6

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the btruth of all things.

I know this works. You did something wrong. It is as simple as that.

 

[Cephus]

I disagree that there is no such thing as a Christian. There are three here right now.

Well, there are three people, to use your statement, who profess to be Christian, but since there is no universally accepted definition, held by all people who self-identify as Christians, for what is required to be a Christian, that claim is a bit dubious. All you can say is that there are three people who claim to be Christian, you cannot prove that any of them actually are.

 

[Serenity7855]

I'd say it about anyone, the strength of their faith is irrelevant, anyone who has irrational beliefs has irrational beliefs no matter how important those beliefs are to them. The only people who think I'm looking stupid by pointing that out either shares those beliefs or is an accommodationist.



Older than you I'm sure.

Would you say that an irrational belief is to think that the world is flat or that HIV causes AIDS or Scurvy is caused by rotting meat, and a whole host of failed hypotheses. Tell me, when the initial idea is formed in science is much of it based on faith in know laws? How many times does the variables change to make the theory fit the objective. It is a tad naive to think that religion is the only field based on a gut instinct. My gut instinct turned into a solid theory. Anybody can do the same if that is their desire. Until you have tried it you cannot knock it. You cannot call the plan of redemption irrational unless you have tested the water. You will not find a single irrational or illogical premise in that whole plan, but why not try

 

[Cephus]

Would you say that an irrational belief is to think that the world is flat or that HIV causes AIDS or Scurvy is caused by rotting meat, and a whole host of failed hypotheses. Tell me, when the initial idea is formed in science is much of it based on faith in know laws? How many times does the variables change to make the theory fit the objective. It is a tad naive to think that religion is the only field based on a gut instinct. My gut instinct turned into a solid theory. Anybody can do the same if that is their desire. Until you have tried it you cannot knock it. You cannot call the plan of redemption irrational unless you have tested the water. You will not find a single irrational or illogical premise in that whole plan, but why not try

Once we know better, absolutely. There was a time when some of those represented the best knowledge that we had. That time is not today. That time hasn't been for a very long time. There has been no serious scientific thought that the planet is flat in a long time, this isn't something new that they're just coming up with, it's something that was settled centuries ago. Therefore anyone who is still operating under that illusion, for any reason, is simply wrong and not being rational.

And what makes you think I haven't tested the water? I spent 20 years as a Christian, after all.

 

[Serenity7855]

Well, there are three people, to use your statement, who profess to be Christian, but since there is no universally accepted definition, held by all people who self-identify as Christians, for what is required to be a Christian, that claim is a bit dubious. All you can say is that there are three people who claim to be Christian, you cannot prove that any of them actually are.

There is a universal definition. Anybody who strives to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ is a Christian. As simple as.

I know that Robert is a converted Christian because I know his story and it is almost identical to mine. You might call that coincidental. I also can tell by his post that he quotes accurate and true doctrine, demonstrating that the holy ghost has testified to his soul. To top it off, I can feel his spirit and his fruits are all good. I am not as familiar with savagewind but he has a warm spirit and talks like he knows the spirit of God. I would stake my life on their credentials as Christians who are donned with the full armour of god. Can I prove it, no more then I can introduce you personally to God, but I know it as surely as I know night follows day. You either choose to believe me or disbelieve me, the choice is all yours

 

[Cephus]

There is a universal definition. Anybody who strives to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ is a Christian. As simple as.

Then how did there get to be 30,000 sects of Christianity? Since there is no definition of what "striving to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ" might be, all of those sects have different ideas, isn't it a bit silly for people here to declare that others are not Christians or were never Christians?

I know that Robert is a converted Christian because I know his story and it is almost identical to mine. I also can tell by his post that he quotes accurate and true doctrine demonstrating that the holy ghost has testified to his soul. To top it off I can feel his spirit and his fruit is all good. I am not as familiar with savagewind but he has a warm spirit and talks like he know the spirit of God. I would stake my life on their credentials as Christians who are donned with the full armour of god. Can I prove it no more then I can introduce you personally to God but I know it as surely as I know night follows day. You either choose to believe me or disbelieve me, the choice is all yours

I don't really care about stories, I care about truth. Someone's story isn't a valid reason to reject reality. Someone's experiences don't give them a rational reason to think that 1+1=147. It doesn't matter what happened to them, they're still wrong. If there is a god, then it doesn't matter what anyone believes, any belief other than that there is a god is wrong. If there isn't a god, then it doesn't matter what anyone believes, any belief other than there isn't a god is wrong. It isn't a choice, it's a fact.

 

[Sapiens]

Would you say that an irrational belief is to think that the world is flat or that HIV causes AIDS or Scurvy is caused by rotting meat, and a whole host of failed hypotheses.

It is irrational to think the world is flat, sailors never did since they had data (seeing the mast top appear first) that the ocean had a curved surface.

It is irrational to think that anything but HIV causes AIDS ... unless you have new data that the NIH is unaware of.

It seemed rational at one time to think that scurvy was caused by eating rotten meat, rational but incorrect. Rotten meat was often all there was to eat at sea and that was when rotten meat was most often all there was to eat. Nansen carried only dried or canned meat into the Arctic and his expedition did not get scurvy, increasing their conviction of the connection between clean and fresh meat and scurvy prevention. But the reason for the prevention of scurvy at that expedition was that they had also had an ample supply of cloudberries that are high in Vitamin C. This is an example not of a failure of science but of bad science. Good science could have answered the question clearly much earlier.

Tell me, when the initial idea is formed in science is much of it based on faith in know laws?

Usually the opposite, not faith in know laws but questions as to the validity of known laws, as per your scurvy example.

How many times does the variables change to make the theory fit the objective.

I've never known that to happen except in cases of intentional fraud or serendipitous happenstance.
[/quote]
It is a tad naive to think that religion is the only field based on a gut instinct.
Gut instinct is a meaningless concept that covers everything from delusions to highly educated approximations.

My gut instinct turned into a solid theory.

No it is not a "solid theory" it is (as Dr. Frederick Frankenstein observed) "... doodoo!". A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. Your gut feeling fail to meet that test by a country mile.

Anybody can do the same if that is their desire. Until you have tried it you cannot knock it. You cannot call the plan of redemption irrational unless you have tested the water. You will not find a single irrational or illogical premise in that whole plan, but why not try

Yes I can, Yes I will. My Mama used to say, "Just because all the other kids watch TV every night that doesn't mean that you have to."
Smart woman, physician, nominated for a Pulitzer, smart woman.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I disagree that there is no such thing as a Christian. There are three here right now.

You do Christians an honour by saying they are cerebral. The word cerebral gets its meaning from cerebrum, which is Latin for brain. Cerebral people use their brains instead of their hearts and emotions. That means that we make decisions using our intelligence and cold, hard facts, instead of our emotions.

I do not expect someone, who was an acting Christian for thirty years, and in that time failed to be converted by the Holy Ghost, to believe in Christ. You must have been doing something very wrong because God has promised that if we follow his teachings that he will reveal the truth of His marvelous work and wonder.

James 1:5-6

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the btruth of all things.

I know this works. You did something wrong. It is as simple as that.

That's fine. Sometimes doing something wrong leads to realisation. I think what happened was the perfectly right way to do something wrong.
;0)

 

[Serenity7855]

Then how did there get to be 30,000 sects of Christianity? Since there is no definition of what "striving to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ" might be, all of those sects have different ideas,

Your figure of Christian sects is a little out of date. Wiki reports that it is in fact 41,000. If you compare Christianity to a shattered mirror with every piece of the mirror being a principle or commandment of the scriptures so that the mirror will only reflect the body of Christ when all of its piece are their. Many of those 41,000 denominations have a good portion of those pieces, however, none of them has them all and none of them have the authority to act in the name of God. They are the churches of men and not God. Jesus said that when two or three individuals gather in my name there shall I be in the midst of them. Christianity is personal, the individuals relationship with God. It is not about religious denominations, as you have eluded to. Those 41,000 denominations are not representative of Christianity, it is their congregations.

isn't it a bit silly for people here to declare that others are not Christians or were never Christians?

On the. Contrary. If you have been converted by the Holy Ghost you will never be able to go back to your former self. Your life will take on a whole new meaning. You will never be able to deny the Christ, even if you wanted to. Because of that you can confidently state that anyone who has gone from being a Christian to a denier of Christ never was a Christian in the first place.

I don't really care about stories, I care about truth. Someone's story isn't a valid reason to reject reality. Someone's experiences don't give them a rational reason to think that 1+1=147.

That would be true if just a couple of people claimed that 1+1=147, however, when 2.2 billion people say it then you start to smell a rat. When two individuals stories are so remarkably similar and their doctrine is incredibly sound, reflecting the whole body of Christ, you can dismiss coincidence.

It doesn't matter what happened to them, they're still wrong. If there is a god, then it doesn't matter what anyone believes, any belief other than that there is a god is wrong.

Yes, that is a accurate statement to make, that is, that
any belief other than that there is a god is wrong.

If there isn't a god, then it doesn't matter what anyone believes, any belief other than there isn't a god is wrong. It isn't a choice, it's a fact.

Yes, I agree. There is a God so any belief other then there is a God is wrong. That, to me and billions of other like minded individuals, is what I believe. I do not believe that any of those 41,000 churches preach the whole truth, but that does not mean that the individual congregationalists are not Christians. If you strive to follow Christ then you are a Christian who attends a religious denomination that preaches the false doctrines of men.