Faith is Dangerous

[Sheldon]

All men and women of faith have courage, sure.

Wow, Godwin's law in one post, but it can't be helped.

Hitler had faith, he stated unequivocally in Mein Kampf more than once, and many times during his life, he felt he was "doing god's work".

To be clear I suppose I should ask, do you think Hitler had courage? Or are you going to reassess your claim, or introduce a no true Scotsman fallacy to arbitrarily create a subgroup of people with faith, to eliminate them, and thus rationalise the claim?

 

[Audie]

I'd say they are related. Courage is predicated upon faith. If you didn't have any faith you could survive, you certainly wouldn't need to find any courage to even try. You'd just give up. But if you had faith you'd survive, you'd muster the courage to persevere. I suppose I'd relate faith more closely with the will to live and thrive, along with the belief you can. They're all interrelated.

Related, sometimes. I wasnt offering a one to
one relationship, i was questioning someones equivocation.

As for predicated...

Do you think the common wombat has Faith?
A yway-
Courage applies to way more than just
survival.

 

[Audie]

most who turn away fro their creator turn to drugs and alcohol

You just made that up

 

[Nakosis]

I would not agree faith is a luxury one can't afford, your son can afford to have faith because he has his mom and dad keeping the fantasy alive; sorta like believing in Santa Clause as long as you have parents putting gifts under the tree. Faith is fine as long as you are not in a position of needing it to work.

But the thing is, life changes. We won't always be around or maybe able. That's the risk.
That's why I see it as dangerous. Might work out for you sometimes, no guarantee that it will.
Better not to depend on faith.

 

[Nakosis]

I think people tend to see that it was faith that pulled them through the hard times, as opposed to giving up hope and succumbing to despair during them. But don't mistake faith as a happy and always cheery optimistic outlook. Faith is really just not giving up preserving, not fake smiles when things are crappy. That's just fear being masked with denial.

Probably better then to let go of the fear and denial. Accepting life for what it is.

But their choice to do so, is the universe caring for them. Do you imagine those people exist outside the universe?

Why didn't the universe care for the children who died in Ukraine?

I wouldn't say so. I'd say magical thinkers overlook how good comes to them through other people, and try to see signs of supernaturalism to shore up their immature faith. But hopefully as they mature, they recognize that good from "God" comes through others.

I just don't see a need to give any credit to God. Well, I suppose the belief in God might make them more charitable then they otherwise might have been.

Hopefully folks will mature to the point they won't need a God to justify their good works.

 

[Nakosis]

Nakosis. You are preaching just like a priest.

Yes, I suppose I missed my calling.
Had an opportunity to become a priest of Scientology.
Doesn't take much really. Just a "church" willing to sponsor you.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Wow, Godwin's law in one post, but it can't be helped.

Hitler had faith, he stated unequivocally in Mein Kampf more than once, and many times during his life, he felt he was "doing god's work".

To be clear I suppose I should ask, do you think Hitler had courage? Or are you going to reassess your claim, or introduce a no true Scotsman fallacy to arbitrarily create a subgroup of people with faith, to eliminate them, and thus rationalise the claim?

Don’t think I mentioned Hitler, so Godwin’s law is rather on you, wouldn’t you say? Odd that you’ve read Mein Kampf though. Who does that, and why?

Anyway, I’ll decline the invitation to join you in the fallacy waltz, thanks.

 

[Trailblazer]

I would hope not. I believe that the Truth from God must be true for every age.

God reveals a new message and new social teachings and laws in every age, but the spiritual Truths from God are true for every age, and they are the same in every age, as Baha'u'llah said in the Preamble to the Hidden Words:
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 3

 

[firedragon]

Yes, I suppose I missed my calling.
Had an opportunity to become a priest of Scientology.
Doesn't take much really. Just a "church" willing to sponsor you.

Hey. Thats interesting. I have only met one guy in the scientology thing. He was a nice guy, but later he used to say that he is not allowed to say anything about their activities. So I have very limited knowledge about their inner workings. I have seen documentaries and read up a little but it seems like third party information.

Interesting. Maybe you should make a post about scientology so that people like us can learn a little. I mean I will really appreciate it.

 

[sun rise]

If you've found Truth, then why would you need faith?

My analogy is with college. When I got accepted and started college, I was happy to have found my path in life (aka the "truth"). But as I continued studying, I had faith (trust) that I was getting the right training for my career.

Or from a closer perspective, when I make a decision in life, I have faith (trust) that it's a good decision leading me ever closer to fully experiencing the Truth

One more: I have, as it were, smelled the roses of Truth. Now my job is to find the actual bed of roses and my faith is that every step I take brings me closer.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Takes more courage to unselfishly give
ones life either in violent defense of
loved ones or a life given to service while
expecting no reward, than to do a 911 with
72 eager virgins awaiting you.

Perhaps, but my comment was only as to beliefs and as to what might affect such.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Odd that you’ve read Mein Kampf though. Who does that, and why?

Hardly odd, if one wants to find out from where do such people get their nasty beliefs - not that I have bothered since Hitler and his type are very low on my priorities as to understanding.

 

[Windwalker]

Probably better then to let go of the fear and denial. Accepting life for what it is.

Well yes, that is an act of faith. Faith is acceptance of whatever may be, and rest in that with peace, rather than fight against it. You're familiar with the Serenity Prayer? "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference". That's faith. Trusting in the unknown. Not trusting in specific outcomes.

Why didn't the universe care for the children who died in Ukraine?

Why does death exist for anyone? Does this mean the universe is uncaring and unloving?

I just don't see a need to give any credit to God. Well, I suppose the belief in God might make them more charitable then they otherwise might have been.

This depends upon how one imagines what God is. If the imagination of God is that of some being that will never allow bad things to happen to you and protect you from life's troubles, then that will pose a challenge to their faith, which is really more just trying to control outcomes through magic. I see that as an immature faith, and an immature view of "God". You're going to run into some pretty severe contradictions when you imagine you can escape reality.

But if you see God as "the Universe", in that the essence of Reality is goodness, and love, then faith sees things differently than the immature trying to control outcomes through magic version of faith does. It rests in the assurance that goodness is present, even in death or pain. It doesn't resist, yet doesn't collapse into apathy and despair. It's a matter of how one not only perceives life, but how they hold it, how they live it emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually.

What is the benefit of calling the universe God, or "giving credit" to it? What is the benefit of love? That's the answer.

Hopefully folks will mature to the point they won't need a God to justify their good works.

Of course. Hopefully their faith will mature and transform them into just being good human beings who show love and empathy in the world.

 

[Augustus]

The best thing about this is that no one sees themselves as being in that comforting lies queue, when in fact, we all are.

"They're all stupid of course, but I strive for truth and really do see the world as it is!"

 

[Nakosis]

Well yes, that is an act of faith. Faith is acceptance of whatever may be, and rest in that with peace, rather than fight against it. You're familiar with the Serenity Prayer? "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference". That's faith. Trusting in the unknown. Not trusting in specific outcomes.

Not the way I see in. Don't have to trust in anything. Just accept reality as it is presented to your awareness.

Why does death exist for anyone? Does this mean the universe is uncaring and unloving?

Making the opposite argument doesn't prove any caring is involved in either case by the universe.

This depends upon how one imagines what God is. If the imagination of God is that of some being that will never allow bad things to happen to you and protect you from life's troubles, then that will pose a challenge to their faith, which is really more just trying to control outcomes through magic. I see that as an immature faith, and an immature view of "God". You're going to run into some pretty severe contradictions

But if you see God as "the Universe", in that the essence of Reality is goodness, and love, then faith sees things differently than the immature trying to control outcomes through magic version of faith does. It rests in the assurance that goodness is present, even in death or pain. It doesn't resist, yet doesn't collapse into apathy and despair. It's a matter of how one not only perceives life, but how they hold it, how they live it emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually.

Or one could not use the concept of God at all in their meta view of the universe.

What is the benefit of calling the universe God, or "giving credit" to it? What is the benefit of love? That's the answer.

Love is a biochemical process of the brain. One can create whatever narrative around that they want, doesn't change the fact of what it is.
Sure, one can use romantic idealism in their consideration of the universe.
Still facts don't care about the myths we create to explain the universe to ourselves.

Of course. Hopefully their faith will mature and transform them into just being good human beings who show love and empathy in the world.

Or let go of any need for faith and accept the reality of reality. But, baby steps I suppose.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Hardly odd, if one wants to find out from where do such people get their nasty beliefs - not that I have bothered since Hitler and his type are very low on my priorities as to understanding.

Maybe it’s me that’s odd then. It’s been said before, tbh.

 

[Windwalker]

Not the way I see in. Don't have to trust in anything. Just accept reality as it is presented to your awareness.

Distrusting everything, is no way to live life. You would live in constant fear and isolation if you lived with distrust in everything. Accepting reality can be done with trust and hope for goodness to carry you through. Or another way would be accepting life with a fatalistic resignation, than nothing matters and death is the only truth in life. That leads to apathy and a loss of anything good in life. It's a form of suicide.

As I tried to say, there is a balance between having faith and being accepting of life, and the other which is being fearful of life and either misusing faith to try to control it, or abandoning all hope and becoming fatalistic. Nihilism is not living. Neither is denialism through wishful thinking inappropriately mistaken by many as "faith", which it is not.

Making the opposite argument doesn't prove any caring is involved in either case by the universe.

Life existing, love existing, happiness, joy, and connection existing, is proof of caring in the universe. That death also exists, is not proof that the universe is uncaring, cold, and impersonal. There is a balance to be had, and faith that accepts reality on its terms, both the good and the bad, is healthy. Nihilism or denialism is not. They are just flipsides of the same coin of fear.

Or one could not use the concept of God at all in their meta view of the universe.

To me any metaview really is a view of "God" by whatever other term you prefer. It basically means how one views Ultimate Reality, which includes everything from atoms to love, to thought, to life, to death, to every single aspect of experienced reality for us as human beings.

So anyone that considers the "big picture" in that way (not just physics), is using the "God concept" whether they call it by that word or not. That word simply means the "big picture" of All That Is. Some in considering that, might imagine it be a "guy in the sky", but that's hardly a very sophisticated understanding, and certainly not the limitations of it.

Love is a biochemical process of the brain.

Seriously? That's all love is to you? Tell that to your mother when she tells you she loves you, that that's all her love is. To say it's just chemical processes, well, that's sounds like reducing love down to the "warm fuzzies" that a 13 year old middle schooler calls "love" when they have a crush on someone. I'm talking adult ideas of love here. Not that.

No, it's a lot more than that of course. It's how we hold others in our hearts. Our attitudes towards them. Our philosophy towards life. It's a condition of our being. And so forth.

One can create whatever narrative around that they want, doesn't change the fact of what it is.

Wanna bet? How we perceive things, very much influences not only our experience of that thing, but the nature of the thing, or even the very thing itself. We interact with the world. We aren't just passive victims of it.

How we frame reality, quite literally creates that reality for us in no small way. Not 100% off course. But we certainly can and do influence the world around us. If you see the world as hateful and fearful, that is the reality you will create for yourself through that narrative. That is how reality works.

Sure, one can use romantic idealism in their consideration of the universe.
Still facts don't care about the myths we create to explain the universe to ourselves.

I think there are more balanced ways than either a fatalistic nihilism or a romantic idealism. This all or nothing view of reality is rather, non-reality.

Or let go of any need for faith and accept the reality of reality. But, baby steps I suppose.

Accept what version of reality? Which set of eyes version of reality? Can you tell me what you think that is?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Faith that God or the universe has some benevolent plan for you.

Thousands are killed daily, go hungry are homeless. There are no guarantees in the universe. No reason to believe the the universe is going to take your best interest into consideration. No reason to believe your future is bright.

My son believes the universe/God has a special plan for him. That he just needs to wait for the universe/God to reveal it.

Who has been watching out for him are his mom and dad. Parents who sacrifice so he has a place to live and food to eat. Not everyone has parents who are able or wiling.

Is it not folly to assume that someone or something exists that will watch out for your best interests? Or that tomorrow you will have a place to sleep. Food to eat. A family to rely on?

I think about the thousands on families in Ukraine who have lost their homes, parents who have lost their children, children who have lost their parents. Who are now homeless.

Faith is a luxury no one can afford.

Your son is absolutely correct I believe, but you have misunderstood what God is all about.

God gave us the human body and feelings and a mind to think and reason with as well as a heart as a moral compass. Then He sends a Messenger, a Teacher or a Christ or Buddha with counsels and advice how to live a rich, fulfilling happy and peaceful life.

Then the rest is up to US. God is not going to wipe our bottoms for us or vacuum our houses or fix up Ukraine or Myanmar or Syria.

Question . Why when it comes to things of self interest like same sex marriage and homosexual rights that the entire world rises up and unites, but when it comes to the massacre and genocide of Ukrainians and Burmese people all disappear?

There is just no real interest in peace and that’s not God’s fault. Putin caused the war not God. Where did Putin get nukes from? The world can thank the great USA for that.

God said through His latest Messenger Baha’u’llah, to arrange a world conference to establish peace. What are we doing? Selling weapons to Ukraine for more profit. Where are the peacemakers?

Then there’s science. Talk about ‘blind trust’. We, humanity have blindly trusted science not to have a moral compass so now we are surrounded by nukes and cannot solve wars because of nukes pointed at us if we intervene.

So blind trust in science is just as bad as blind trust in religion.

WE started the killing and wars in Ukraine, Myanmar and Syria not God. WE invented nuclear weapons then distributed them all around the world to the highest bidder NOT GOD.

It’s about time we grew up and took responsibility for our own actions and begin to clean up the mess WE have made. God has always asked us to love and care for one another, help the poor, defend the oppressed, bring the tyrant to justice and make peace not war.

So stop blaming God for things which are OUR fault.

We have put our blind trust in humanity and now face the prospect of another third war. I place my whole trust in the God that has appealed to us to love and care for one another as He seems to be the ONLY ONE Who has humanity’s best interest at heart by calling us all to love not hate, to peace not war. But we never listen to Him so we invite disaster after disaster.

 

[Quagmire]

For me, faith is just the conviction that everything is as it should be, even if it sucks.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Maybe it’s me that’s odd then. It’s been said before, tbh.

Well, as having some interest in psychology, I have looked into why so many do carry out some of the worst actions and behaviours, and this often means looking into why some kill or abuse others. Just something one has to do in order to understand such things even if this is usually not that enjoyable. One has to admire those professionals who actually deal with such people - the psychologists and such - and as to how they manage to not let such horrors, as is often the case, affect them. Since impartiality is usually necessary to make good assessments and to get at any truth.