First time hearing about the Virgin Mary

[Yoshua]

You missed the boat entirely here.

Its not about the Koine word, its about the Hebrew word almah .

Christians are telling me she was a virgin.by Machavelle

Hi Outhouse,

I just referred to what Machavelle statement, he's referring to Mary in the New testament. How come you used almah? Do almah have a different meaning for a virgin?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

No it did not.

Jesus did not exist until the first century

Hi Outhouse,

What is your basis?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Personal faith does not equal truth. It equals wish and want.

Faith is defined as belief without evidence to support said belief.

Hi Outhouse,

I think the faith that you implied is the common faith that has no personal relationship with God. The faith that I'm stressing is the Christian faith which we believe have evidence to support our belief. It is a living faith with Christ. That is how we differed.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Actually only humans defined the concept, and we actually see how ancient Israelites did this and combined two deities into one.

So far what we have uncovered is humans change these definitions, and if you want to understand god, you must first understand the people who wrote about him changing the definition/


Do you understand anything anthropological here, or just apologetic rhetoric with no historic value ?

Hi Outhouse,

You may say that human defined the concept, that's the reason how cult churches sprouted. Possibly you also may understand the people who wrote especially the 4 gospels. We can see their character of writings, and different angle of views.

I believed in historical, and valued it most especially the Bible.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

It never felt very moral the concept of free will to me, mainly because of heaven and hell.
Let me ask you a question: if I was pointing a gun at you and I was telling you "you can come with me or you can chose no to. If you come with me ill buy you a mansion and ill give you 10 million dollars. If you chose not to I will rape you, than I will torture you and in the end I will shoot you and kill you"

Would you really call that "letting you free to chose?" Would you say that I m giving you a fair choice here, most of all would you consider it from me a loving behaviour?

Hi Cambridge,

Yes, that is still letting you to choose as having a free-will. If you will notice with your questions that one of it is peace or life, and the other is destruction or death. In Christianity, I believe it is fair that God sent His Son, Jesus Christ to offer the hope of salvation to be with Him in eternity. This is commenced through Jesus Christ as saying "Follow Me", "Come to Me", "Believe Me" and others.

God may do it by not giving us a free-will, and not offered salvation to mankind. Still, this is not God's plan, and it can never be changed. He did not come here to bring death, but to bring life.

John 10:10
10. "The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly.

Luke 19:10
10. "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Thanks

 

[cambridge79]

Hi Cambridge,

Yes, that is still letting you to choose as having a free-will. If you will notice with your questions that one of it is peace or life, and the other is destruction or death. In Christianity, I believe it is fair that God sent His Son, Jesus Christ to offer the hope of salvation to be with Him in eternity. This is commenced through Jesus Christ as saying "Follow Me", "Come to Me", "Believe Me" and others.

God may do it by not giving us a free-will, and not offered salvation to mankind. Still, this is not God's plan, and it can never be changed. He did not come here to bring death, but to bring life.

John 10:10
10. "The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly.

Luke 19:10
10. "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Thanks

Wouldn't be more fair and just to say "those who follow me will have grace forever in my reign, the others can do as they please and nothing will happen to them" instead of "those who follow me will have grace forever , the others will be tortured in hell forever by deamons and will have no peace". As I said whenever a guy points a gun to you asking you to do something you dont call him just and fair, you call the police!

That's not fair, that's not just, that's a psychotic behaviour.

Also, why would send jesus be an efficient and fair way to convey that message?
First he could have found something less gory and painful, I don't need a man tortured and put on a cross in order to follow him.
Wasn't walking on water and raising the deads spectacular enough to dispel any doubt he was the son of god? The whole sacrifice thing is pointless.

Second its not fair to all the man that lived before him and that lived far from him. Why Australians needed to wait till 19th century to receive the word of Jesus while the Palestinians had it 1900 years before? Do god care less about aussies than the rest?

 

[outhouse]

Ok. You don't like it

It is not about like. It is about learning why the authors wrote what they did, when they did.

I have a non biased passion to understand the text. We know Koine Greek speaking people used and plagiarized OT in creating the NT text.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almah

Almah (עלמה, plural: alamot עלמות, in Arabic Amah آمه which means unspecified women or a women passed teen age aside of her sexual status) is a Hebrew word meaning a young woman of childbearing age who has not yet had a child, and who may be (but does not have to be) an unmarried virgin or a married young woman. It does not, in and of itself, indicate whether that woman is a virgin or not.[1] The term occurs nine times in the Hebrew Bible – see usage below.

We think Matthew and Luke used this word from Isaiah

Scholars agree that the Hebrew word used in Isaiah, "almah", signifies a girl of childbearing age without reference to virginity

 

[outhouse]

What is your basis?

Real history, not mythology. What they teach in universities basically.

 

[outhouse]

Possibly you also may understand the people who wrote especially the 4 gospels.

I wish I knew them better. I study the anthropology and cultures of this time period, and at best we have partial glimpses of the communities that compiled the NT text.

We can see their character of writings, and different angle of views.

Yes we see what different communities found important.

I believed in historical, and valued it most especially the Bible.

There in lies the problem. It factually is not a credible source of history at face value. It has historical information but only through academic study can one even begin to piece together the past.

But to stay in context of the OP, Mary factually has no historicity regarding virgin birth.

It was so unimportant to the first followers, the first gospel known as mark, the communities attributed to Matthew and Luke had to copy, found no value in such and did not write a single word about it. Nor the resurrection for that matter. The community attributed to mark, simply did not care at all, or the mythology did not exist at his earlier time period.

We see this "virgin birth" mythology developing after 80CE in Matthews and Lukes text

 

[Neo Deist]

Hi Outhouse,

Ok. You don't like it "maiden," then let's use the dictionary from google. Does it change anything about being a virgin??
vir·gin
ˈvərjən/
noun
noun: virgin; plural noun: virgins

1. 1.
   a person who has never had sexual intercourse.
   synonyms: chaste woman/man, celibate;More
   ingénue;
   literarymaiden, maid, vestal
   "she remained a virgin"
   • the mother of Jesus; the Virgin Mary.
     singular proper noun: Virgin; noun: the Virgin
   • the zodiacal sign or constellation Virgo.
     noun: the Virgin
   • archaic
     a young unmarried woman.
     "the parable of the wise and foolish virgins"
2. 2.
   a person who is naive, innocent, or inexperienced, especially in a particular context.
   "a political virgin"

Maybe, you have another meaning of the word "virgin" that I did not know.
Thanks

He is referring to the fact that Jesus as the messiah is supposed to fulfill OT (hence Hebrew language) prophecies, and that includes the prophecy found in Isaiah 7:14 (which I mentioned earlier in the thread). Translations have typically copied the Koine Greek rendering of the Hebrew term almah, and it is wrong to do so. Some translations (like the NASB) include footnotes now with the correct rendering.

 

[outhouse]

He is referring to the fact that Jesus as the messiah is supposed to fulfill OT (hence Hebrew language) prophecies, and that includes the prophecy found in Isaiah 7:14 (which I mentioned earlier in the thread). Translations have typically copied the Koine Greek rendering of the Hebrew term almah, and it is wrong to do so. Some translations (like the NASB) include footnotes now with the correct rendering.

Understood

from my first post in this thread. #34

While true, that aspect was intentionally plagiarized to fictionally build divinity with a miraculous birth.

Its much more then a simple linguistic misunderstanding. These Hellenist were building divinity not just to compete against the Emperor as "son of god" but build a character that was better and more divine.

 

[outhouse]

People forget.

Hellenist who were being Proselytized were already worshipping the Emperor as "son of god" They had to build a better story and legend and mythology then a corrupt politician.

What made jesus different then just a powerful myth, is that he actually died and was crucified fighting the corrupt politicians in his time.

So this death was perceived as a selfless sacrifice, and the man paid the ultimate price no politician would, the most horrible death of that time period. All for the good of the people.

This martyrdom was so important to early followers they built the man to be much more, because to them he was more then just a man. And his story lived on, and it grew.

It was not long and his story so powerful, it took a life of its own, and not long after his legend and growing theology was competing against the Emperor himself.

Amazing to go from a student of Johns 1 to 3 years previously, being an Aramaic Galilean peasant, then to compete against the emperors divinity. Its an amazing real true life story.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Hello
In the beginning I want a simple definition for Buddhism
Because I am in fact, I do not know much about it
But I know for a fact it's one peaceful religion does not advocate terrorism
For this we can meet in this important issue
But asked about the Virgin Mary
Is there evidence to this claim
I'll tell you yes
Mary is historically a Jewish strain of Daoud and the children of Israel
And Jews during the life of Christ were in Palestine
It had a large structure called the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem
This structure was a temple or sacred to Jews
There were young virgins serving in the temple
I think that means the Virgin Mary
There were more than Mary serving in the temple, and this is known to Jews
But Mary, the mother of Christ was a different
Because the Bible says that Christ the Savior or the people of Israel to be born of the Holy Spirit
Meaning it is not a sexual relationship in his birth
Is the word of God
We believe that the Word of God Pvt own characteristics
And the first full qualities of holiness
It's far from any sex humanitarian
For this van, which can be a link between man and God is the word of the same attributes of God
Any holiness
And Christ enjoy this holiness
This is the essence of the idea of the birth of Christ from a virgin
Jews were not able to prove the contrary
Because who got
There was a great man protects Mary
It is somewhat of adultery, which prevent them
It is Joseph
This is the Christian faith in the birth of the Virgin Mary
But since you are a Buddhist you think that you study the teachings of Christ
Is close to the teachings of the Buddha
Or violation of her
Accept my greetings and respect to follow Buddhism

 

[Yoshua]

Wouldn't be more fair and just to say "those who follow me will have grace forever in my reign, the others can do as they please and nothing will happen to them" instead of "those who follow me will have grace forever , the others will be tortured in hell forever by deamons and will have no peace". As I said whenever a guy points a gun to you asking you to do something you dont call him just and fair, you call the police!

That's not fair, that's not just, that's a psychotic behaviour.

The “grace of God” is truly forever because God is eternal. He has already given His grace, this is why we are still living, breathing, and have free-will. But in the Bible, the God-given grace is salvation which will be applied in faith. That is the greatest gift of God.

Eph. 2:8-9
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

Then how anyone will have the grace of God forever with Him if nobody would want to believe him in the first place?

The example of pointing a gun as analogy for fairness and just fall short in the eyes of God and man. Did you know why?
If you are familiar with the crucifixion of Christ, they accused, mock, kick, punch, whip, scourged, beaten, denied, betrayed, let Him carried the big wooden cross, and nailed Him on the cross. That is greater and more than a gun that you mentioned.

I don’t think that is fair and just with that treatment.

Also, why would send jesus be an efficient and fair way to convey that message?

I believe that God needs to send someone in the person of Jesus to convey the message to people, that is personal relationship that transpired with His disciples and followers. Therefore, there should be an incarnation.

First he could have found something less gory and painful, I don't need a man tortured and put on a cross in order to follow him.

I believed that this is the reason why God used the highest form of punishment in the Roman Empire. If God used the less grave punishment, that would be something that has equality which can be taken by an ordinary man. Again, Christ suffered on the cross is not to follow Him but an offer.

Wasn't walking on water and raising the deads spectacular enough to dispel any doubt he was the son of god? The whole sacrifice thing is pointless.

May I know and clarify what do you mean by your term “pointless”?

Second its not fair to all the man that lived before him and that lived far from him. Why Australians needed to wait till 19th century to receive the word of Jesus while the Palestinians had it 1900 years before? Do god care less about aussies than the rest?

I don’t blame God either why I just born in the 19th century. It’s God plan. I believe God cares.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

It is not about like. It is about learning why the authors wrote what they did, when they did.

I have a non biased passion to understand the text. We know Koine Greek speaking people used and plagiarized OT in creating the NT text.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almah

Almah (עלמה, plural: alamot עלמות, in Arabic Amah آمه which means unspecified women or a women passed teen age aside of her sexual status) is a Hebrew word meaning a young woman of childbearing age who has not yet had a child, and who may be (but does not have to be) an unmarried virgin or a married young woman. It does not, in and of itself, indicate whether that woman is a virgin or not.[1] The term occurs nine times in the Hebrew Bible – see usage below.

Hi Outhouse,

Mary is woman, a young woman, who has not yet a child before, unmarried virgin. If we take the definition of “almah” in the Hebrew text as “whether that woman is a virgin or not,” would it destroy the credibility of Mary in the New Testament??

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Real history, not mythology. What they teach in universities basically.

Hi Outhouse,

I think you are referring with Jesus who is in flesh (human). Jesus appearing in the New Testament was a history indeed.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

There in lies the problem. It factually is not a credible source of history at face value. It has historical information but only through academic study can one even begin to piece together the past.

Hi Outhouse,

Then, who do you think the witness person that can attest that Jesus existed before?

But to stay in context of the OP, Mary factually has no historicity regarding virgin birth.

It was so unimportant to the first followers, the first gospel known as mark, the communities attributed to Matthew and Luke had to copy, found no value in such and did not write a single word about it. Nor the resurrection for that matter. The community attributed to mark, simply did not care at all, or the mythology did not exist at his earlier time period.

We see this "virgin birth" mythology developing after 80CE in Matthews and Lukes text

Then what is Mary if she is not a virgin? Can you explain something?

Where did you get your source here about Mary issues?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

People forget.

Hellenist who were being Proselytized were already worshipping the Emperor as "son of god" They had to build a better story and legend and mythology then a corrupt politician.

What made jesus different then just a powerful myth, is that he actually died and was crucified fighting the corrupt politicians in his time.

He is different because He is the Son of God, Saviour and Lord. He died and resurrected.

So this death was perceived as a selfless sacrifice, and the man paid the ultimate price no politician would, the most horrible death of that time period. All for the good of the people.

This martyrdom was so important to early followers they built the man to be much more, because to them he was more then just a man. And his story lived on, and it grew.

It was not long and his story so powerful, it took a life of its own, and not long after his legend and growing theology was competing against the Emperor himself.

Amazing to go from a student of Johns 1 to 3 years previously, being an Aramaic Galilean peasant, then to compete against the emperors divinity. Its an amazing real true life story.

What do you mean? Did you believe that the narratives in the Bible about Jesus--is true life story of Jesus--as those event happened?

Thanks

 

[outhouse]

Hi Outhouse,

What is your basis?

Thanks

Credible history

 

[outhouse]

would it destroy the credibility of Mary in the New Testament??

There is little credibility for mary in the NT. She is barely mentioned, and what was mentioned was by people far removed from her life.