Fixing the scripture ...

[Jayhawker Soule]

Did you know that Hebrew is read from right to left, ...

Seriously? What a joke!

 

[savagewind]

Seriously? What a joke!

Did you know that if you transfer Hebrew words to the forum the master forum will place them in the right direction?

Haha. Like magic.

 

[roger1440]

If you look in any dictionary, you will find many synonyms for words. Any of these words can techncally be used, but the correct one is the one that agrees with the rest of the Bible.

Can you explain to me why its only the Jewish Bible that translates Isaiah 7:14 to "young woman" rather then "virgin"?

http://biblehub.com/isaiah/7-14.htm

 

[Milton Platt]

Jayhawker Soule,
It seems that you are just trying to find something about the Bible that you can disagreè with, really because you want an excuse for no obeying God's word.
Any serious searcher of truth knows that there are a variety of ways to translate, and it takes a person who knows the Bible very good to know exactly which words convey the message from God accurately.
If you look in any dictionary, you will find many synonyms for words. Any of these words can techncally be used, but the correct one is the one that agrees with the rest of the Bible.
Did you know that Hebrew is read from right to left, and the different parts of speech are put in different sequences than in English. This makes translation difficult, even for someone very familiar with the languages. A comparison of different Bibles is what is needed for an English speaker to understand what is translated. This is true because there are several words that can be translated for a word, but only one may be right for complete accuracy.
All modern Bibles are accurate, but by comparison, a serious student of the Bible can see nuances and subtleties of understanding.

So what you are saying is that only a person with extensive knowledge of the Hebrew and Greek languages can know for sure what the stories in the bible really mean??? So what person did god decide was the arbiter of his words? How does someone who does not have all this linguistic knowledge ever know what is right? Why couldn't he just as easily have made himself known in all languages rather than leave it open to human interpretation, which leads to errors? For an all powerful deity, his communication skills are lousy.

 

[Milton Platt]

Can you explain to me why its only the Jewish Bible that translates Isaiah 7:14 to "young woman" rather then "virgin"?

http://biblehub.com/isaiah/7-14.htm

How does listing translations in various bibles answer his question? The fact that numerous English translations give the word virgin does not necessarily indicate the translators (who all had presumptions of their own) were correct.

 

[roger1440]

So what you are saying is that only a person with extensive knowledge of the Hebrew and Greek languages can know for sure what the stories in the bible really mean??? So what person did god decide was the arbiter of his words? How does someone who does not have all this linguistic knowledge ever know what is right? Why couldn't he just as easily have made himself known in all languages rather than leave it open to human interpretation, which leads to errors? For an all powerful deity, his communication skills are lousy.

I'm going to take a wild guess here. The Jews who translated that verse didn't use the word "virgin" because virgins do not have babies. The Christians on the other hand use the word "virgin" because it would point to the virgin birth of Jesus. The problem is that is not the correct way to translate. Good ole Isaiah did not use the Gospels of Matthew and Luke when he wrote his story. The correct way to translate is to use a word that would correlate with a word that was used up to the point in time of Isaiah's writing.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm going to take a wild guess here. The Jews who translated that verse didn't use the word "virgin" because virgins do not have babies. The Christians on the other hand use the word "virgin" because it would point to the virgin birth of Jesus.

Not really, but Isaiah 7:14 has been discussed ad nauseam.

 

[roger1440]

Not really, but Isaiah 7:14 has been discussed ad nauseam.

I don't know of any Jewish writings that say, "Isaiah 7:14 points to a virgin, but Jesus ain't the guy".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I don't know of any Jewish writings that say, "Isaiah 7:14 points to a virgin, but Jesus ain't the guy".

That's nice, but it does not imply ...

I'm going to take a wild guess here. The Jews who translated that verse didn't use the word "virgin" because virgins do not have babies. The Christians on the other hand use the word "virgin" because it would point to the virgin birth of Jesus.

 

[roger1440]

That's nice, but it does not imply ...

​

The point I’m making is that to translate any verse in the Bible only verses up to the point in time of the verse in question can be used as reference. The entire Bible cannot be used. To understand Isaiah 7:14 it’s absurd to believe one must read the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. It’s irrelevant rather or not Jesus was born of a virgin. What is relevant is that Isaiah’s readers did not have access to these gospels because they were not written until about 700 years later.

Here is an interesting video with Bart Ehrman. He discusses the theological bias of the translators of the king James Bible at 43 minutes and 3 seconds into the video

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The point I’m making is that to translate any verse in the Bible only verses up to the point in time of the verse in question can be used as reference.

Actually, that too is wrong. In translating the bible one marshall everything that is known about the words and phrases in question, including evidence from non-biblical text.

In any event, none of this implies ...

I'm going to take a wild guess here. The Jews who translated that verse didn't use the word "virgin" because virgins do not have babies. The Christians on the other hand use the word "virgin" because it would point to the virgin birth of Jesus.

What drove the translation of 7:14 was not insidious Christian word-smithing but the fact that the Septuagint rendered almah as parthenos.

 

[savagewind]

Actually, that too is wrong. In translating the bible one marshall everything that is known about the words and phrases in question, including evidence from non-biblical text.

In any event, none of this implies ...

​

What drove the translation of 7:14 was not insidious Christian word-smithing but the fact that the Septuagint rendered almah as parthenos.

Marshall? What does it mean?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Marshall? What does it mean?

It means that I should have written "marshals".

 

[savagewind]

It means that I should have written "marshals".

Good! I agree.

 

[roger1440]

Actually, that too is wrong. In translating the bible one marshall everything that is known about the words and phrases in question, including evidence from non-biblical text.

In any event, none of this implies ...

​

What drove the translation of 7:14 was not insidious Christian word-smithing but the fact that the Septuagint rendered almah as parthenos.

Even though the "Septuagint rendered almah as Parthenos" the Jews still understood it to mean young woman and not virgin. Do you know of any Jewish writings or commentary that understood Isaiah 7:14 to mean virgin? I don't, cause there aint none.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Even though the "Septuagint rendered almah as Parthenos" the Jews still understood it to mean young woman and not virgin.

This is getting tiresome. What you previously wrote was ...

I'm going to take a wild guess here. The Jews who translated that verse didn't use the word "virgin" because virgins do not have babies. The Christians on the other hand use the word "virgin" because it would point to the virgin birth of Jesus.

... which was little more than an a snide petty attack on the integrity of early Christian translators.

• Jews did not translate עַלְמָה as 'virgin' because it does not mean 'virgin'.
• Christians translated παρθένος as 'virgin' because it typically (but not always) means 'virgin'.

If you're looking for an opportunity to blame, look to the sloppy translation of Isaiah into Greek.

 

[12jtartar]

roger1440,
You show, both a lack of insight and of the laziness of looking up words in concordances, or comparing the many Literal Bibles.
Evidently, the word used, Almah can be correctly translated as either virgin, maiden, young woman, young girl. Which translated word used should be translated by the translator, the way the rest of the Bible shows to be accurate.
In the case of Isaiah 7:14, the word was Ha Almah, which means, not A virgin, but The Virgin. This is because, as the scripture says, this was a sign, or announcement, something different from a young woman having a child, in the usual, but something different.
I have access to over 50 different, English translations, of which I have compared what each says. All literal Bibles and concordances use Virgin, by far most of the time for Almah, because to a Jew any maiden was a virgin. If they were not the Mosaic Law Covenant said they must be put to death, and if they could not prove their virginity on their wedding night, by showing the blood on their sheets, they were to be put to death.
Any translator who knows what he is doing would translate Almah as virgin, because it was a special maiden, virgin, and also because the Christian Greek Scriptures use Virgin, and all scripture is inspired by God, Himself, both The Hebrew and Greek Scripture. 2Timothy 3:16,17, 2Peter 1:20,21.
I would advise you to download BibleHub.com, or OliveTree.com, or 65Bibles.com. These can make sure you have the correct understanding of God's message, not just the correct words, which can,Correctly, be translated several ways, just as words today can be.

 

[rosends]

roger1440,
You show, both a lack of insight and of the laziness of looking up words in concordances, or comparing the many Literal Bibles.
Evidently, the word used, Almah can be correctly translated as either virgin, maiden, young woman, young girl. Which translated word used should be translated by the translator, the way the rest of the Bible shows to be accurate.
In the case of Isaiah 7:14, the word was Ha Almah, which means, not A virgin, but The Virgin. This is because, as the scripture says, this was a sign, or announcement, something different from a young woman having a child, in the usual, but something different.ou English translations w
I have access to over 50 different, English translations, of which I have compared what each says. All literal Bibles and concordances use Virgin, by far most of the time for Almah, because to a Jew any maiden was a virgin. If they were not the Mosaic Law Covenant said they must be put to death, and if they could not prove their virginity on their wedding night, by showing the blood on their sheets, they were to be put to death.
Any translator who knows what he is doing would translate Almah as virgin, because it was a special maiden, virgin, and also because the Christian Greek Scriptures use Virgin, and all scripture is inspired by God, Himself, both The Hebrew and Greek Scripture. 2Timothy 3:16,17, 2Peter 1:20,21.
I would advise you to download BibleHub.com, or OliveTree.com, or 65Bibles.com. These can make sure you have the correct understanding of God's message, not just the correct words, which can,Correctly, be translated several ways, just as words today can be.

some of what you say is incorrect.
First, I can find you English translations which do not say "virgin."
Second, A young woman's non- virginity at marriage was not an issues on its own, or automatically punishable by anything
Third, if the word meant "virgin" you wouldn't have the phrase "na'arah betulah" in the biblical texts because it would be redundant. And yet we do.
Here is what I wrote elsewhere:
So just to riff on Is. 7:14 and the stupidity of "virgin" I figured I would point out that the word "alma" in some form is used 7 times in the Hebrew bible. In the Sept of 7:14, the text translates it as παρθέν_9;ς parthenos. I'm not going to get into the possible meanings of that word but I will point out that the KJV renders it as "virgin." I then looked at other textual uses of the word. In Proverbs 30:19, the text speaks of "the way of a young man with an 'almah'". The Sept. there has καὶ ὁδοὺς ἀνδρὸς ἐν νεότητ_3; and the KJV has "and the way of a man with a maid". According to my brief check, no word in that Greek reflects the existence of a female (""the ways of a man in his youth").

Psalms 68:26 mentions the plural (alamot). The KJV (in its verse 25) reads "the damsels " as does the English Sept.
Exodus 2:8 which uses the exact same form (ha'alma) reads in Greek νεᾶνις and in the Sept, as "young woman" while the KJV has "maid."

I think this should put to rest the veracity of the KJV's "virgin" claim. The word doesn't mean that and in other situations where it is used, the various translations don't render it as such.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Can you explain to me why its only the Jewish Bible that translates Isaiah 7:14 to "young woman" rather then "virgin"?

Good grief!

From The New Oxford Annotated Bible with Apocrypha: New Revised Standard Version; Fourth Edition:

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Emanuel.​

From : NABRE - New American Bible Revised Edition:

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign; the young woman, pregnant and about to bear a son, shall name him Emmanuel.​

 

[McBell]

Good grief!

From The New Oxford Annotated Bible with Apocrypha: New Revised Standard Version; Fourth Edition:

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Emanuel.​

From : NABRE - New American Bible Revised Edition:

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign; the young woman, pregnant and about to bear a son, shall name him Emmanuel.​

Good grief?
Perhaps you would be so kind as to explain why it is you think so many of these these got it "wrong":

Isaiah 7:14

(ASV)
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(BBE)
For this cause the Lord himself will give you a sign; a young woman is now with child, and she will give birth to a son, and she will give him the name Immanuel.

(Bishops)
Therefore the Lorde hym selfe shall geue you a token: Beholde, a virgin shall conceaue and beare a sonne, and shall call his name Emmanuel.

(Brenton)
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel.

(CEV)
But the LORD will still give you proof. A virgin is pregnant; she will have a son and will name him Immanuel.

(Darby)
Therefore will the Lord himself give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and shall bring forth a son, and call his name Immanuel.

(DRB)
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel.

(ERV)
But the Lord will still show you this sign: The young woman is pregnant and will give birth to a son. She will name him Immanuel.

(ESV)
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(Geneva)
Therefore the Lorde himselfe will giue you a signe. Beholde, the virgine shall conceiue and beare a sonne, and she shal call his name Immanu-el.

(GNB)
Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who is pregnant will have a son and will name him 'Immanuel.'

(ISV)
"Therefore the LORD himself will give you a sign. Watch! The young lady is conceiving a child, and will give birth to a son, and his name will be called Immanuel.

(JPS)
Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(JUB)
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel.

(KJV)
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(KJV+)
ThereforeH3651 the LordH136 himselfH1931 shall giveH5414 you a sign;H226 Behold,H2009 a virginH5959 shall conceive,H2029 and bearH3205 a son,H1121 and shall callH7121 his nameH8034 Immanuel.H6005

(KJV-1611)
Therefore the Lord himselfe shal giue you a signe: Behold, a Uirgine shall conceiue and beare a Sonne, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(KJV-BRG)
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(LITV)
So, The Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold! The virgin will conceive and will bring forth a son; and she shall call His name Immanuel.

(MKJV)
So, the Lord Himself shall give you a sign. Behold, the virgin will conceive and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel.

(RV)
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(Webster)
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(YLT)
Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, And hath called his name Immanuel,​