Fixing the scripture ...

[savagewind]

Good grief?
Perhaps you would be so kind as to explain why it is you think so many of these these got it "wrong":

Isaiah 7:14

(ASV)
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(BBE)
For this cause the Lord himself will give you a sign; a young woman is now with child, and she will give birth to a son, and she will give him the name Immanuel.

(Bishops)
Therefore the Lorde hym selfe shall geue you a token: Beholde, a virgin shall conceaue and beare a sonne, and shall call his name Emmanuel.

(Brenton)
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel.

(CEV)
But the LORD will still give you proof. A virgin is pregnant; she will have a son and will name him Immanuel.

(Darby)
Therefore will the Lord himself give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and shall bring forth a son, and call his name Immanuel.

(DRB)
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel.

(ERV)
But the Lord will still show you this sign: The young woman is pregnant and will give birth to a son. She will name him Immanuel.

(ESV)
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(Geneva)
Therefore the Lorde himselfe will giue you a signe. Beholde, the virgine shall conceiue and beare a sonne, and she shal call his name Immanu-el.

(GNB)
Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who is pregnant will have a son and will name him 'Immanuel.'

(ISV)
"Therefore the LORD himself will give you a sign. Watch! The young lady is conceiving a child, and will give birth to a son, and his name will be called Immanuel.

(JPS)
Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(JUB)
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel.

(KJV)
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(KJV+)
ThereforeH3651 the LordH136 himselfH1931 shall giveH5414 you a sign;H226 Behold,H2009 a virginH5959 shall conceive,H2029 and bearH3205 a son,H1121 and shall callH7121 his nameH8034 Immanuel.H6005

(KJV-1611)
Therefore the Lord himselfe shal giue you a signe: Behold, a Uirgine shall conceiue and beare a Sonne, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(KJV-BRG)
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(LITV)
So, The Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold! The virgin will conceive and will bring forth a son; and she shall call His name Immanuel.

(MKJV)
So, the Lord Himself shall give you a sign. Behold, the virgin will conceive and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel.

(RV)
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(Webster)
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(YLT)
Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, And hath called his name Immanuel,​

Easy! They were all published by people propagating their version of the story.

 

[McBell]

Easy! They were all published by people propagating their version of the story.

Which would make them no different from anyone else, including the original authors....

However, I am interested in HIS reasons.
I may or may not agree with them, but given I accept the fact that he is much more learned than I on the topic.....

 

[roger1440]

Good grief!

From The New Oxford Annotated Bible with Apocrypha: New Revised Standard Version; Fourth Edition:

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Emanuel.​

From : NABRE - New American Bible Revised Edition:

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign; the young woman, pregnant and about to bear a son, shall name him Emmanuel.​

All Christian Bibles will understand Isaiah 7:14 as virgin regardless of what word is used, (virgin, young woman, old hag, etc.) All one has to do is compare Isaiah 7:14 to Matthew 1:22-23.

You had quoted from the New Revised Standard Version. Now from that same version:

“22 All this took place to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet:

23 “Look, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel,”which means, “God is with us.””

 

[LuisDantas]

The original word was almah, which does not necessarily refer to a virgin and roughly translates into "girl of child bearing age".

For Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_7:14#The_Book_of_Isaiah ):

The almah has been identified as either the mother of Hezekiah or the daughter of Isaiah.[11] There are, however, problems with both candidates: Hezekiah was born well before the war with Ephraim and Syria began, and although almah does not specifically mean virgin, it probably does mean a girl who has not yet had a child, and Isaiah already has a son. In any case the significance of the Immanuel sign is not the identity of the child and its mother but the meaning of the name ("God is with us") and, most important, the role it plays in identifying the length of time before God will destroy the Ephraimite-Syrian coalition (before the child learns right from wrong).[9]

Catholic Bibles sometimes have annotations pointing out that Isaiah 7:14 may be interpreted as a prophecy about the Virgin Birth of Jesus, but in all likelihood does not have that as its sole meaning.

One only has to notice how quickly "gay" changed its meaning in the last few decades to notice that it is very tentative to say what exactly was meant by "almah" some seven hundred years before Matthews.

I realize that many Christians want to believe that the scripture has a clear, definite meaning, but I just don't see how the decision can (or should) be made in any other way but by a doctrinary call.

 

[leibowde84]

I think adding something or subtracting something from the original is corruption, unless one gives the original text ; the Word revealed from the one true attributive creator God; side by side of the translation, in my opinion.

Wouldn't that require everyone to be able to read the language that said scripture was originally written in? If so, I agree that would be the only way to avoid this kind of "corruption", but don't you think it's a bit unrealistic? And, being so, wouldn't that make God a bit unreasonable?

 

[savagewind]

Wouldn't that require everyone to be able to read the language that said scripture was originally written in? If so, I agree that would be the only way to avoid this kind of "corruption", but don't you think it's a bit unrealistic? And, being so, wouldn't that make God a bit unreasonable?

It is only now with the internet connection to scholarly study that an average person can look into the meaning of scripture. Unfortunately, most people are happy to believe what a very few people have said God means and won't bother themselves.

 

[leibowde84]

It is only now with the internet connection to scholarly study that an average person can look into the meaning of scripture. Unfortunately, most people are happy to believe what a very few people have said God means and won't bother themselves.

Very true and very sad. I always find it extremely disturbing when people don't take the time to examine their scripture and the history behind their scripture to avoid just taking people's word for its meaning and validity.

 

[roger1440]

Actually, the word virgin might work depending on how the sentence is meant to be understood.

“Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”(Isaiah 7:14)

The word “shall” is future tense. The woman in question is a virgin at the time of writing and before conception but not necessarily after conception. Here is an example. Let’s say I just had a baby. We substitute “virgin” for “baby”. We then substitute “conceive” for “college”. Shortly after my child is born someone asks me, “Do you have any plans for your baby?” I answer with, “I shall send my baby to college.” It does not necessarily mean that I will send my child to college while she is still a baby. All this means is at the time I said that my child was a baby and at some future point in time I shall send her to college. If the Greek version of Isaiah 7:14 is understood in that manner it would be in agreement with the Hebrew version.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Good grief?
Perhaps you would be so kind as to explain why it is you think so many of these these got it "wrong":

Primarily because they were translating the Septuagint rather than the MT.

 

[rosends]

Actually, the word virgin might work depending on how the sentence is meant to be understood.

“Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”(Isaiah 7:14)

The word “shall” is future tense. The woman in question is a virgin at the time of writing and before conception but not necessarily after conception. Here is an example. Let’s say I just had a baby. We substitute “virgin” for “baby”. We then substitute “conceive” for “college”. Shortly after my child is born someone asks me, “Do you have any plans for your baby?” I answer with, “I shall send my baby to college.” It does not necessarily mean that I will send my child to college while she is still a baby. All this means is at the time I said that my child was a baby and at some future point in time I shall send her to college. If the Greek version of Isaiah 7:14 is understood in that manner it would be in agreement with the Hebrew version.

IIRC correctly, the text of Isaiah is not written in future tense. The text reads "and the young woman conceived" often rendered as "and the young woman is pregnant."

 

[roger1440]

"Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." (JPS Tanakh 1917)

I don't read Hebrew, I'm stuck with the English versions.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Actually, the word virgin might work depending on how the sentence is meant to be understood.

Please identify the gender and tense of the verbs you find.

יד לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא, לָכֶם--אוֹת: הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ, עִמָּנוּ אֵל.​

 

[rosends]

"Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." (JPS Tanakh 1917)

I don't read Hebrew, I'm stuck with the English versions.

OK, here is some English:

Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.

-----------------

The pregnancy is in present tense but still the baby has not been born, the prophecy regarding the name is in the future tense.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

(JPS Tanakh 1917)/QUOTE]The 1917 JPS was essentially King James sans the NT. It was not an independent translation. It has long been superceded by more modern and more accurate translations.

 

[roger1440]

Here is the version from the Jewish Study Bible
Look, the young woman is with child and about to give birth to a son. Let her name him Immanuel.
Seems you might be right

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

All Christian Bibles will understand Isaiah 7:14 as virgin ...

"will understand?" When will that happen?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Catholic Bibles sometimes have annotations pointing out that Isaiah 7:14 may be interpreted as a prophecy about the Virgin Birth of Jesus, but in all likelihood does not have that as its sole meaning.

One only has to notice how quickly "gay" changed its meaning in the last few decades to notice that it is very tentative to say what exactly was meant by "almah" some seven hundred years before Matthews.

I realize that many Christians want to believe that the scripture has a clear, definite meaning, but I just don't see how the decision can (or should) be made in any other way but by a doctrinary call.

We've had this discussion before. The problem is not simple a problem with "almah." There is no verb indicating "will/shall become." Rather, it says "behold the pregnant maiden ..."

 

[roger1440]

"will understand?" When will that happen?

Opps, bad grammer.

 

[roger1440]

OK, here is some English:

Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.

-----------------

The pregnancy is in present tense but still the baby has not been born, the prophecy regarding the name is in the future tense.

How did the Greek version end up with "virgin"?. The two translations are nowhere near alike.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

How did the Greek version end up with "virgin"?. The two translations are nowhere near alike.

It didn't. It ended up with parthenos.