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For Muslims: Is Muhammad the last Prophet from God?

firedragon

Veteran Member
For example, the book refers to itself to establish credibility, and that bit of illogic was well known centuries before the Quran was written.
How does a book referring to. itself as "establishing credibility" be illogical? Can you give the A and Not A at the same time argument quoting the verse?

If it does take years of study, then it's imperfect because it claims to be easy to understand.
Understanding and giving giving expert level exegesis are two different things. The Qur'an can be understood easily. That does not mean you could understand without reading it. It's absurd. Also, understanding does not mean scholarship in hermeneutics. That takes study of the language at base level, and the study of Assiyaak especially. You are conflating two different things.

So since you are talking about logic, can you give the modes tollens on this argument so that it's understood clearly?

This is how my brain was built, to use logic. And the Quran (as well as most other scripture), makes repeated logical errors.
You should provide the verse, and provide premise by premise to q argument since you are built to use logic that provide the logical contradictions.

Please go ahead.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
It should be known that in the case of both hadiths and Quran, the ambiguity is from ignorance and sorcery of Satan. We've already seen hadiths that all of the Quran is clear signs to Ahlulbayt (a) (those given the knowledge). "Nay: it is clear signs in the hearts of those given the knowledge".

We saw that if you come up with a meaning that is not what God intends - you will find many contradictions.

However when things begin to click and it is what God intends, you can verify it with many parts.

I gave an example. One of the easiest ways to do it is to see the mini-context. For example, in 4:59 you would go back some verses and let them flow to 4:59. For example, Ahlulbayt (a) often quote 4:54 to support that Ulul-Amr is the family of Mohammad (s). In fact, much of the Quran, is all giving context to 4:59. So you can refer it to most of Quran in the clear signs way. But people forget most of the Quran and read 4:59 in isolation, and won't even see the flow of 4:54 to that.



It means there is more then one meaning to it. For example, in "the chosen from our servants so from them are those who are unjust" line can be seen in more then one way. The sentences that are wrong resemble the original sentence, but it's not what God means.

Another example is 4:59 some Quranists for example say Ulul-Amr means experts in each field. For example, you can ask an expert of math in math. An engineer in engineer stuff. And you obey them in those matters.

The traditional Sunni interpretation is that it refers to rulers and governors.

The sentences resemble the original meaning, but the original revealed sentence is different. However, what God wants us to do is contextualize and put words in their proper place.

So the clear meaning is what he wants us to believe and act upon. However the sorcery makes it difficult.


Ok, but, let's also consider what تاويل (interpretation of Mutishabihat ) is.

First, is it fair to say, that, what is Mutishabih in Quran, have Taweel, and what is Muhkam, does not require Taweel?
Can this be derived from verse 3:7 ?

When it says, None knows its interpretation except God and the well-grounded in knowledge, is it talking about interpretation of Mutishabih or Muhkam?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ok, but, let's also consider what تاويل (interpretation of Mutishabihat ) is.

First, is it fair to say, that, what is Mutishabih in Quran, have Taweel, and what is Muhkam, does not require Taweel?
Can you conclude that feom verse 3:7 ?

When it says, None knows its interpretation except God and the well-grounded in knowledge, is it talking about interpretation of Mutishabih or Muhkam?
The real interpretation is Muhkam no matter how deep it goes. The false tawil is by diseased hearts and is mutashabih.
Tawil happens for everything in the Quran. Everyone reciting Quran assigning meaning is interpreting. When we don't know something, we are
supposed to leave it believing in it, but not give it a meaning we are not sure of.

Muhkam means it's the clear sign meaning. It's the original book meaning. The clear signs all form the original book (ummal kitab). It's what God intends. The mutashabih, if something is that to us we are suppose to leave it till it becomes muhkam to us. Believe the words make sense even if we don't know it. This makes sense as well that things can be translated wrong and that can make people disbelieve. This happened to me when I checked tafsirs too, a false meaning of a verse and false translations got me to disbelieve. Then to make myself feel better about my disbelief, I found more reasons.

Some people believe in Tawhid and don't understand the arguments and reminders for God and Tawhid in the Quran. However, the clear recitation since Quran doesn't want us to blindly just acknowledge what Quran says, is to understand the clear reminders in this regard.

The Quran is designed differently then other books. It's layered so deep but the deeper you go, the clearer the Quran gets. But this only traversed if you build on clear signs. If you build on unclear, it darkens. The only way back, is to start referring what is unclear to what is clear. The hadiths are a big help in this regard. They awaken people to the true Quran recitation.

To me, I left the 14 mysterious disconnected sequences of letters till they all clicked one day not of my own accord. Not me wanting to know. It was a miracle for me when they clicked. To me, even these are clear signs. And in fact miracles for me in the Quran. The easiest thing is to see it next to the name of God. But you have to understand that God has no real name, and so his name is a metaphor for his word of light - the leader from God and face of God. Fourteen is too much of coincidence, but through reflecting over subtle signs, you can assign each of them to one of the 14 Ma'asoomeen.

If anything was ambiguous it would be these letters, but once you see the clear association, even these are not that ambiguous and not hard to know what they are reminding of.
 
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Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Sorry if I am late to the party. But which other prophets in what text calls other prophets as "seal of prophets"?
The phrase "seal of the prophets" from the Quran implies that more than one prophet is relevant here and probably refers to the prophets that are endorsed by the Quran. One of those prophets was Isaiah, who described an event where a sealed book was given to a unlearned/illiterate man like Muhammad.

Muhammad's revelation in the cave resulted in a book (the Quran), and his being pressed is consistent with how a document is sealed.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
The real interpretation is Muhkam no matter how deep it goes. The false tawil is by diseased hearts and is mutashabih.

So, what you are saying, all verses of Quran are Muhkam. But when someone misinterpret it, it becomes Mutishabih?


But that's not what Quran says:

هُوَ ٱلَّذِیۤ أَنزَلَ عَلَیۡكَ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ مِنۡهُ ءَایَـٰتࣱ مُّحۡكَمَـٰتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَـٰبِهَـٰتࣱۚ فَأَمَّا ٱلَّذِینَ فِی قُلُوبِهِمۡ زَیۡغࣱ فَیَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَـٰبَهَ مِنۡهُ ٱبۡتِغَاۤءَ ٱلۡفِتۡنَةِ وَٱبۡتِغَاۤءَ تَأۡوِیلِهِۦۖ وَمَا یَعۡلَمُ تَأۡوِیلَهُۥۤ إِلَّا ٱللَّهُۘ وَٱلرَّ ٰسِخُونَ فِی ٱلۡعِلۡمِ یَقُولُونَ ءَامَنَّا بِهِۦ كُلࣱّ مِّنۡ عِندِ رَبِّنَاۚ وَمَا یَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّاۤ أُو۟لُوا۟ ٱلۡأَلۡبَـٰبِ


"He is the One Who has revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ the Book, of which some verses are precise—they are the foundation of the Book—while others are elusive. Those with deviant hearts follow the elusive verses seeking ˹to spread˺ doubt through their ˹false˺ interpretations—but none grasps their ˹full˺ meaning except Allah. As for those well-grounded in knowledge, they say, “We believe in this ˹Quran˺—it is all from our Lord.” But none will be mindful ˹of this˺ except people of reason."3:7

It does not say, all verses are Muhkam. It says, "some verses are Muhkam".... while others are Mutishabihat.

مِنۡهُ ءَایَـٰتࣱ مُّحۡكَمَـٰتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَـٰبِهَـٰتࣱۚ


You are reinterpreting this verse, to say something else.


Perhaps, what you want to say, is, the Mutishabihat verses, would mislead the diseased hearts, but, as for those who are well-grounded in knowledge, they do not get mislead by them, because they know how to correctly interpret (Taweel) them.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Based on what verse? What understanding of text?
Yusuf Ali: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
Quran 33:40

Prophets is plural, so more than one.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Yusuf Ali: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
Quran 33:40

Prophets is plural, so more than one.
Yeah. If I say A is the seal of prophets all the prophets before A are all sea;'s?

Utter nonsense.

"The seal" is in the Mufradh. So it's singular. Plurality of the "prophets" does not mean the person or Mubthadha is not plural.

I am hearing some of the most absurd bogus ideas about the Qur'an and the Arabic language in this forum since late. Mostly from the Bahais in this thread who pretend to be experts in arabic, and now I don't know what you are but this one is another cake.

You are absolutely wrong.

Even in English if someone says "I am the last of the mohicans", that does not mean all the mohicans in the past were all "Last".
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I'm not interested in your absurd strawman. Read what I actually wrote.
Well, if I misunderstood you, you could correct me. You said because the sentence "seal of the prophets" has "prophets" in the plural, all the prophets are seals or Khawathim or plural of Chatham. Wrong or right? Please clarify.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So, what you are saying, all verses of Quran are Muhkam. But when someone misinterpret it, it becomes Mutishabih?


But that's not what Quran says:

هُوَ ٱلَّذِیۤ أَنزَلَ عَلَیۡكَ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ مِنۡهُ ءَایَـٰتࣱ مُّحۡكَمَـٰتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَـٰبِهَـٰتࣱۚ فَأَمَّا ٱلَّذِینَ فِی قُلُوبِهِمۡ زَیۡغࣱ فَیَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَـٰبَهَ مِنۡهُ ٱبۡتِغَاۤءَ ٱلۡفِتۡنَةِ وَٱبۡتِغَاۤءَ تَأۡوِیلِهِۦۖ وَمَا یَعۡلَمُ تَأۡوِیلَهُۥۤ إِلَّا ٱللَّهُۘ وَٱلرَّ ٰسِخُونَ فِی ٱلۡعِلۡمِ یَقُولُونَ ءَامَنَّا بِهِۦ كُلࣱّ مِّنۡ عِندِ رَبِّنَاۚ وَمَا یَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّاۤ أُو۟لُوا۟ ٱلۡأَلۡبَـٰبِ


"He is the One Who has revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ the Book, of which some verses are precise—they are the foundation of the Book—while others are elusive. Those with deviant hearts follow the elusive verses seeking ˹to spread˺ doubt through their ˹false˺ interpretations—but none grasps their ˹full˺ meaning except Allah. As for those well-grounded in knowledge, they say, “We believe in this ˹Quran˺—it is all from our Lord.” But none will be mindful ˹of this˺ except people of reason."3:7

It does not say, all verses are Muhkam. It says, "some verses are Muhkam".... while others are Mutishabihat.

مِنۡهُ ءَایَـٰتࣱ مُّحۡكَمَـٰتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَـٰبِهَـٰتࣱۚ


You are reinterpreting this verse, to say something else.


Perhaps, what you want to say, is, the Mutishabihat verses, would mislead the diseased hearts, but, as for those who are well-grounded in knowledge, they do not get mislead by them, because they know how to correctly interpret (Taweel) them.
You are relying on a bad translation. From the book comes clear signs and the other (things that come from it) are ambiguities. The clear signs are the original book.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Well, if I misunderstood you, you could correct me. You said because the sentence "seal of the prophets" has "prophets" in the plural, all the prophets are seals or Khawathim or plural of Chatham. Wrong or right? Please clarify.
It was about the number of prophets. Seal is singular, there's only one seal and according to the Quran that seal is Muhammad.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
It was about the number of prophets. Seal is singular, there's only one seal and according to the Quran that seal is Muhammad.
Alright. Since I misunderstood you, I do apologize. So you do affirm that at least from the Qur'anic perspective, Muhammed is the seal of prophets. Singular. One person.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
You are relying on a bad translation. From the book comes clear signs and the other (things that come from it) are ambiguities. The clear signs are the original book.

Where does it say "from the book comes"?

When looking at this Hadith, it is clear that, the Book is divided into two types of verses:

- عيون أخبار الرضا (ع): أبي، عن علي، عن أبيه، عن حيون مولى الرضا، عن الرضا عليه السلام قال:
من رد متشابه القرآن إلى محكمه هدي إلى صراط مستقيم، ثم قال عليه السلام: إن في أخبارنا متشابها كمتشابه القرآن، ومحكما كمحكم القرآن، فردوا متشابهها إلى محكمها، ولا تتبعوا متشابهها دون محكمها فتضلوا.


Uyūn Akhbār al-Riḍā (عليه السلام): From my father, from ‘Alī, from his father, from Ḥayyūn, the servant of al-Riḍā, from al-Riḍā (عليه السلام), who said: "Whoever refers the ambiguous of the Quran to its clear is guided to the straight path." Then he (عليه السلام) said: "Indeed, in our narrations, there are ambiguous ones like the ambiguous parts of the Quran, and clear ones like the clear parts of the Quran. So refer the ambiguous ones to the clear ones, and do not follow the ambiguous ones without referring to the clear ones, lest you go astray."



For example, consider what Quran says;

"Every soul will taste death"


There is no ambiguity in this verse to anyone. It means the same to a disbeliever, to a Baha'i, to a Christian, to a Sunni, to a Shia.

This is Muhkam. It is not like, those who have diseased hearts, will get mislead and cause Fitna, and they do not know how to interpret it, and only God and infallible Imams know its interpretation.

Or consiser this verse:

"O my dear son! Establish prayer, encourage what is good and forbid what is evil, and endure patiently whatever befalls you. Surely this is a resolve to aspire to.." Lighman 17

This is a clear verse to anyone. To Abu Bakr, to Saddam, to Hassan Nasrallah, to me, and to yourself, it means the same. There is nothing ambiguous in this verse. And those whose heart have a disease, would not cause Fitna, or discord.


Such verses are not Mutishabihat to anyone, no matter how sick someone is.
These are Muhkammat.

Or here is a better example:

"....And lower your wing to the believers" 15:88

This verse is clear to anyone. No body would say, it means the Prophet actually have physical wing. Everyone, knows it is a metaphor, an analogy. Regardless it is Umar, Abubakr, Ali, you, Khamenei or an atheist, they all agree, this wing, is not physical. It is not like this verse becomes Mutishabih to those have a disease of heart.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Alright. Since I misunderstood you, I do apologize. So you do affirm that at least from the Qur'anic perspective, Muhammed is the seal of prophets. Singular. One person.
No problem. Also, according Bukhari Muhammad was pressed like a seal is pressed to authenticate a document.

An Angel came to him and asked him to read. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) replied, "I do not know how to read." The Prophet (ﷺ) added, "Then the Angel held me (forcibly) and pressed me so hard that I felt distressed.

 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Yeah. If I say A is the seal of prophets all the prophets before A are all sea;'s?

Utter nonsense.

"The seal" is in the Mufradh. So it's singular. Plurality of the "prophets" does not mean the person or Mubthadha is not plural.

I am hearing some of the most absurd bogus ideas about the Qur'an and the Arabic language in this forum since late. Mostly from the Bahais in this thread who pretend to be experts in arabic, and now I don't know what you are but this one is another cake.

You are absolutely wrong.

Even in English if someone says "I am the last of the mohicans", that does not mean all the mohicans in the past were all "Last".

@Link

Actually the term "Khaatam Unnabiyeen" is a very good example of Mutishabihat verse, because there is ambiguity in it. If there was not, we would all agree what it means.

Khaatam can mean "Ring", "Signet Ring", or "Seal" (Stamp).

So, this can be interpreted differently.

For example, Prophet being Ring of Prophets, can mean He is the ornament of Prophets.
If we say, it mean "Signet Ring" or "Seal", then it can mean, He confirmed Prophets. He is the Seal of Authentication of Prophets. As Muhammad confirmed many Prophets.
But, many of the Muslims or their Scholars have said, it means, Seal of Finality, because when we stamp a letter, it is stamped at the end of it.

So, here there are at least, three possible interpretations.

This is an example of a Mutishabihat verses.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
"Fear God and He will teach you" is a verse of the Quran.

I understand "God fearing" to mean, one who does not sin. He does not lie, does not backbite, does not commit fornication, does not treat any being unfairly. On the other hand, he is kind to all beings, he is truthful, generous to the needy, defends the rights of wronged ones. He puts his trust in God at all the time, and is free from Hate, and fanaticism.
Once a person's soul and mind is in such a clean state, naturally he discovers truth or reality of all things. Because God has created the mind and soul to become enabled to discover truth, and gain knowledge, when it becomes "clean". It is very organic and natural.
Fearing God, does not mean, to do or not do things, for fear of Hell. But it is to fear, that one looses his sight, ears, heart and mind, and does not understand. It is about loving the attributes of God, and fear of loosing Love of God.
Your ideas here are fantastic. But those ideas are not in the Quran. You created them or some Muslim before you created them.
 
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