It seems your advice is for me to not use the brain you say god gave me?
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For Muslims: Is Muhammad the last Prophet from God?
- Thread starter Truthseeker
- Start date
How do you conclude that?
When I read the Quran I came to the book as I would any book I'm editing. (I'm an author and editor by profession.) I also came to the book with the understanding that Muslims believe the book to be the perfect, timeless, unalterable word of god.
So as I read, I read the book from a logical perspective, and I found the book to be filled with bad logic. For example, the book refers to itself to establish credibility, and that bit of illogic was well known centuries before the Quran was written.
If the book is as Muslims claim, then it should not years of theological study to understand it the way you do. If it does take years of study, then it's imperfect because it claims to be easy to understand. And if you claim that I'm reading it wrong, then that gets us right back to the logical fallacy of the book using itself as a reference.
This is how my brain was built, to use logic. And the Quran (as well as most other scripture), makes repeated logical errors.
So if I'm to trust the Quran, I must mistrust the brain I was given. (And of course I will not do that.)
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
The universe is not the result of creation by any such entity. That is a 3,000 year old Jewish myth.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
How could you possibly know that?
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
satan told him.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Science ties it much better than any God. Of course, science is a tool of Satan. Muslims do not study it and should not study it. Just Quran is enough.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
It can be .. like most things in life, they can be used in good ways and bad ways.
..but 'science' does not tell you G-d does not exist. It's a tool.
No .. it's all in your mind .. you know, that thing you equate to a piece of meat.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
For Muslims: Is Muhammad the last Prophet from God?
Muhammad is last in status/rank on the vertical axis, not the last in time, please, right?
Muhammad himself told of Second Coming of Isa/Masih and Imam Mahdi so he knew the rank of a person after him, right?
Regards
In religious matters there is no majority or minority, the truth is radiant and is to be understood with clarity, right?
Muhammad is last in status/rank on the vertical axis, not the last in time, please, right?
Muhammad himself told of Second Coming of Isa/Masih and Imam Mahdi so he knew the rank of a person after him, right?
Regards
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
That is like saying that science cannot prove that FSM does not exist.
Quran never says it's true because it says so. It states to recognize it as a proof and sign, and that if all humans and Jinn unite they can't bring the like of it.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
I didn't say 'God', I said creator. Science is a methodology, it takes people to apply it and people are not omniscient.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
"Fear God and He will teach you" is a verse of the Quran.
I understand "God fearing" to mean, one who does not sin. He does not lie, does not backbite, does not commit fornication, does not treat any being unfairly. On the other hand, he is kind to all beings, he is truthful, generous to the needy, defends the rights of wronged ones. He puts his trust in God at all the time, and is free from Hate, and fanaticism.
Once a person's soul and mind is in such a clean state, naturally he discovers truth or reality of all things. Because God has created the mind and soul to become enabled to discover truth, and gain knowledge, when it becomes "clean". It is very organic and natural.
Fearing God, does not mean, to do or not do things, for fear of Hell. But it is to fear, that one looses his sight, ears, heart and mind, and does not understand. It is about loving the attributes of God, and fear of loosing Love of God.
I use to think like this. You should read Surah Zumar, the "fataqoon" after description of hell.
لَهُمْ مِنْ فَوْقِهِمْ ظُلَلٌ مِنَ النَّارِ وَمِنْ تَحْتِهِمْ ظُلَلٌ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ يُخَوِّفُ اللَّهُ بِهِ عِبَادَهُ ۚ يَا عِبَادِ فَاتَّقُونِ | There will be canopies of fire above them, and [similar] canopies beneath them. With that Allah deters His servants. So, My servants, be wary of Me! | Az-Zumar : 16
I believe if hell and day of judgment reality and God's reality and the light of Imams (a) was clear as it will be then, with everyone having clear sight to it today, then fear of God would not be a good thing.
If God was clear and his proof not hidden, and in fully display, fear of God would have no or little merit.
It would be trivial and also almost completely selfish. However, Quran emphasizes on fearing God while he is hidden, fearing God in regards to what is hidden. This means God's wrath and his right to punish in hell, we can simply deny it. It's not like water we drink or sun we see, it's unseen, and only access to God now is by the vision of the heart which is love. Love if doesn't believe in the beauty of God and the balance between his mercy and wrath and the priority of his mercy but right of his wrath, won't see God.
To see God takes love vision and humility. Since hell is a real threat, humility combined with love, is what causes people to fear it. Otherwise, people don't take it seriously if they don't acknowledge the beauty and majesty of God in this regard.
Right now fear of God in terms of hell, takes us to sacrifice our ego, that we are worthy of punishment without his mercy, and that we hope by God's grace that he saves us from his wrath. That he doesn't cause us to become blind deaf and dumb and fate us to hell due to our sins.
Sufis and Rumi tend to emphasize this fear does not have merit, but I believe not having it, means, you are arrogant towards real danger. If God was not hidden, then fear of God would be without merit, but because to a great degree even if one witnesses miracles and unseen light, he is still hidden, it is due to love of who God is that one accepts hell and it's out of knowledge of failing one's duty towards God that one acknowledges they merit hell.
Also keep in mind, almost all sins are due to love of this world which is the inward true reason why outward shirk is condemned. That is idols are taken for love for leaders and society, which is for sake of convenience of this worldly life and selfish identity and ego.
So while believers acknowledge God intellectually as One, the heart may follow caprice or equate others with God all the time, and it's an obligation to be inwardly free of shirk as well. This is where prayers of Sahifa Sajjadiya and likes are very important. When one is caught between Satan and Allah (swt), Dunya and akheera.
Otherwise, there also du'as for those who have defeated the lower self. In fact, commanding to good and forbidding evil is forbidden for those who have not. This is a problem we have with clergy set up too. Not every clergy has defeated lower self and the system is set up for disaster in this regard.
And one thing you always get wrong about me is I don't believe in Taqlid or a clergy like class system we have today.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
A minority or majority view is an indication of how many people believe something. There is no reason for either view to be better than the other (the ad populum fallacy applies).
I don't have any reason to think that Muhammad was lowest in status. Being last in time relates to interpreting 'seal of the prophets' as 'last of the prophets', and there is better textual support for the Ahmadiyya view that seal means validation.
The rank of Isa/Yeshua relative to Muhammad could be inferred from the number of times that they are mentioned in the Quran. However, there could be other prophets who are lower in rank than Muhammad.
Salam
Something to keep in mind is Arabic multiple word meanings have silently a priority. For example, "Ahl" means family, unless context shows it to be irrational. This why most translations translated "A Wazeer from Ahli", with "Ahli" as "my family". Some places "ahl" can't mean family, so there it would go to people or followers depending on context.
Momin like wise in Quran means believer unless context shows that to be irrational. Then it takes the meaning of "security giver" as in the case of God being called "Al-Momin" and the context there with the other titles and over all Surah shows it to be that. Other verses such as 5:55 the amanu should be about security because the Welayat there and context before and after of judging by God's revelation and singular word of Wali as well as the many hadiths designation of it when Ali (a) gave a ring while bowing in prayer.
Parable meanings in any language happen for words but when the literal meaning is clearly not meant by absurdity of applying it to the context. The literal meaning has priority.
So ring or stamp (verification) can be a metaphor okay, but the way language works is to assume the literal meaning of a word before going to metaphor. Since there is nothing making literal meaning absurd, it has to be assumed.
Something to keep in mind is Arabic multiple word meanings have silently a priority. For example, "Ahl" means family, unless context shows it to be irrational. This why most translations translated "A Wazeer from Ahli", with "Ahli" as "my family". Some places "ahl" can't mean family, so there it would go to people or followers depending on context.
Momin like wise in Quran means believer unless context shows that to be irrational. Then it takes the meaning of "security giver" as in the case of God being called "Al-Momin" and the context there with the other titles and over all Surah shows it to be that. Other verses such as 5:55 the amanu should be about security because the Welayat there and context before and after of judging by God's revelation and singular word of Wali as well as the many hadiths designation of it when Ali (a) gave a ring while bowing in prayer.
Parable meanings in any language happen for words but when the literal meaning is clearly not meant by absurdity of applying it to the context. The literal meaning has priority.
So ring or stamp (verification) can be a metaphor okay, but the way language works is to assume the literal meaning of a word before going to metaphor. Since there is nothing making literal meaning absurd, it has to be assumed.
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Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Ambiguous terms are interpreted by context, with interpretations that are consistent with the wider context being preferred over those that are not.
This is true. But the Quran is a clear book. The only ambiguous thing it really has going is the mysterious disjointed letters, but since they all beside the name of God and other things and their number adding to fourteen sequences, they are not that hard to decipher.
The Ulul-Amr for example, by itself, can be stated to be rulers in a secular sense of the word. The mini context makes it clear it's the family of Mohammad (a). The greater context makes it even more clear in the Quran where God wishes to designate his representatives the authority.
If there were verses say there will be more Nabis, then we have to interpret it metaphorically. But there is no such thing, so the verse get's the literal meaning assigned. That's the natural way the Arabic language works which is why everyone doesn't even think of the metaphoric meanings. Because it's not the right way to approach language. The right way is to prioritize the literal.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Let me ask you this.
How do we know if an Ayih in Quran is Muhkam or Mutishabihat?
How do we distinguish Mutishabihat verses?
I don't want to argue about opinions, who is right here. But rather a clear guideline by Prophet or Imams, supported by verses of Quran that tells us, how we know an Ayih is Mutishabihat. An example from Imams, that they clearly say, this is an example of Mutishabihat.
Have you done a research on that?
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
No, it is not. FSM does not claim to be of Divine nature.
Nevertheless, are you saying that "science" CAN prove anything about it?