For Muslims: Is Muhammad the last Prophet from God?

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Let me ask you this.

How do we know if an Ayih in Quran is Muhkam or Mutishabihat?
How do we distinguish Mutishabihat verses?
I don't want to argue about opinions, who is right here. But rather a clear guideline by Prophet or Imams, supported by verses of Quran that tells us, how we know an Ayih is Mutishabihat. An example from Imams, that they clearly say, this is an example of Mutishabihat.
Have you done a research on that?

The first thing you have to realize is ayat means sign, so by definition, a sign is never ambiguous. We've been through this before though I've shown a lot of hadiths about this.

 

[Ebionite]

The only ambiguous thing it really has going is the mysterious disjointed letters

The ambiguity here is that seal can mean finality or validation. Since the title of 'seal of the prophets' refers to other prophets it would make sense to look at Isaiah's text that refers to Muhammad.

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Isaiah 29:11-12

The phrase 'I am not learned' is translated from 'not know book' which could mean illiterate like Muhammad. The book was delivered to Muhammad as a revelation, and Muhammad was pressed as a seal is pressed to validate a document.

 

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The ambiguity here is that seal can mean finality or validation. Since the title of 'seal of the prophets' refers to other prophets it would make sense to look at Isaiah's text that refers to Muhammad.

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Isaiah 29:11-12

The phrase 'I am not learned' is translated from 'not know book' which could mean illiterate like Muhammad. The book was delivered to Muhammad as a revelation, and Muhammad was pressed as a seal is pressed to validate a document.

I'm saying literal meanings have priority over metaphorical. So the metaphorical shouldn't be seen as possible unless the literal is impossible.

 

[Ebionite]

I'm saying literal meanings have priority over metaphorical. So the metaphorical shouldn't be seen as possible unless the literal is impossible.

That's an arbitrary position, there is no reason why literal should be preferred over metaphorical.

 

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That's an arbitrary position, there is no reason why literal should be preferred over metaphorical.

It's my experience how naturally language works. We do it when we talk to each other. But people want to play games with God's words, that's why holy books face this problem.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The first thing you have to realize is ayat means sign, so by definition, a sign is never ambiguous. We've been through this before though I've shown a lot of hadiths about this.

Ok, but I don't remember you gave me any answer supported by verses and Hadith.

 

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Ok, but I don't remember you gave me any answer supported by verses and Hadith.

What the Hadiths of Ahlulbayt (a) says about verse 3:7

Salam The clear vs ambiguous العياشي عن الصادق عليه السلام انه سئل عن المحكم والمتشابه فقال المحكم ما يعمل به والمتشابه ما اشتبه على جاهله وقد سبقت أخبار آخر في تفسيرهما في المقدمة الرابعة. وفي الكافي والعياشي عنه عليه السلام في تأويله أن المحكمات أمير المؤمنين والأئمة عليهم السلام...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What the Hadiths of Ahlulbayt (a) says about verse 3:7

Salam The clear vs ambiguous العياشي عن الصادق عليه السلام انه سئل عن المحكم والمتشابه فقال المحكم ما يعمل به والمتشابه ما اشتبه على جاهله وقد سبقت أخبار آخر في تفسيرهما في المقدمة الرابعة. وفي الكافي والعياشي عنه عليه السلام في تأويله أن المحكمات أمير المؤمنين والأئمة عليهم السلام...

www.religiousforums.com

Thanks.

Those are long Hadithes with good guidance, but based on what they said, do you think you can give an example of Muhkamaat and and example of Mutishabihat? Are there examples from the Imams or the Quran itself that says, this is an example of what Allah means by Mutishabihat, and this is an example of what Allah means by Muhkamaat?

 

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Thanks.

Those are long Hadithes with good guidance, but based on what they said, do you think you can give an example of Muhkamaat and and example of Mutishabihat? Are there examples from the Imams or the Quran itself that says, this is an example of what Allah means by Mutishabihat, and this is an example of what Allah means by Muhkamaat?

4:59. Muhkam is Imam Ali (a) and Imams (a) are meant by "Ulul-Amr". Mustashabih is that it means Abu Bakr and Ummayads and Abbasids etc.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

4:59. Muhkam is Imam Ali (a) and Imams (a) are meant by "Ulul-Amr". Mustashabih is that it means Abu Bakr and Ummayads and Abbasids etc.

Where did you get the idea that Abu Bakr is Mutishabih?

 

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Where did you get the idea that Abu Bakr is Mutishabih?

It's in the second hadith I quoted.

وفي الكافي والعياشي عنه عليه السلام في تأويله أن المحكمات أمير المؤمنين والأئمة عليهم السلام والمتشابهات فلان وفلان.

It's known in Shia literature, when it's two fulans, it means Abu Bakr and Umar, but book writing they take it out for Taqiya purposes.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It's in the second hadith I quoted.

وفي الكافي والعياشي عنه عليه السلام في تأويله أن المحكمات أمير المؤمنين والأئمة عليهم السلام والمتشابهات فلان وفلان.

It's known in Shia literature, when it's two fulans, it means Abu Bakr and Umar, but book writing they take it out for Taqiya purposes.

Ok, that is the whole Hadith you quoted:

Imam Sadiq (a) regarding interpretation "the clear" is "the Commander of the faithful and the Imams/leaders (peace be upon them) and the ambiguous is fulan and fulan(which is an expression for Abu Bakr and Umar in our hadiths) who are away from the truth like an innovator "so they follow what is apparent and which it's interpretation is a falsehood "seeking discord" seeking to try/prosecute people regarding their religion "so those who have perversity in their hearts" by doubt and mixing and inorganizing the clear and ambiguous.


What does it mean by the part I bolded?

"so they follow what is apparent and which it's interpretation is a falsehood"

What does it mean "What is apparent"? Can you give an example from Hadithes or Quran, explaining what is it mean by "Apparent" in the context of Mutishabihat?

 

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Ok, that is the whole Hadith you quoted:

Imam Sadiq (a) regarding interpretation "the clear" is "the Commander of the faithful and the Imams/leaders (peace be upon them) and the ambiguous is fulan and fulan(which is an expression for Abu Bakr and Umar in our hadiths) who are away from the truth like an innovator "so they follow what is apparent and which it's interpretation is a falsehood "seeking discord" seeking to try/prosecute people regarding their religion "so those who have perversity in their hearts" by doubt and mixing and inorganizing the clear and ambiguous.


What does it mean by the part I bolded?

"so they follow what is apparent and which it's interpretation is a falsehood"

What does it mean "What is apparent"? Can you give an example from Hadithes or Quran, explaining what is it mean by "Apparent" in the context of Mutishabihat?

It means what is apparent to them while it's a false interpretation. For example, 4:59, to them "authority" apparently to them means kings type authority.

Another obvious example is "Then we inherited the book to those who we chosen from our servants then of them is who is unjust to himself..." if you focus on the verse alone the sorcery of Satan makes you think the unjust/oppressive to themselves is one of the chosen, but if you recall the emphasis in the verse before that God revealed the book to Mohammad (s) and that "with respect to his servants is aware seeing", the emphasis on "servants", "then we inherited the book to those who we chosen from our servants so of them....", the them by natural language should go back to "Servants" since God is emphasizing on being aware seeing of them.

This also a proof that there is a real sorcery on majority of mankind minds and hearts to not be able to contextualize speech even if it's this close to each other when it comes to the Quran.

Another is 33:6, the Awliya we are only to do good to refers to the same type of authority and relationship of Awla that Nabi (s) has over believers, and the Ulul-Ahram are obviously his family when you keep that in mind. But people decontextualize and split the lines in 33:6 in three off related facts that have nothing to do with each other almost. And if you keep in mind the verses after 33:7-8 it's obviously related to the covenant of Mohammad (s) which is similar to that taken by all Prophets (a).

Another example is the blind man in Surah Abasa. It's obviously a spiritually blind man that no matter how much Mohammad (s) would try to purify he would not be purified, and so the questions are rhetorical, would Mohammad (s) turn away from someone who comes striving? And would he spend time with someone who is too arrogant to listen and it's not upon Mohammad (s) to divert his attention to. Then says "nay! it is a reminder! For who wants to, to remember!", meaning Mohammad (s) would never do such a thing, and the questions are to make us reflect not to spend time on people who don't want guidance and not turn away from people who seek it.

 

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Can you give an example from Hadithes or Quran, explaining what is it mean by "Apparent" in the context of Mutishabihat?

Usually hadiths show the clear recitation. Then you see by that what most don't see. For example, 42:23, Ahlulbayt (a) explain it to mean the reward of Mohammad (s) is an accusation.There is a long hadith from Imam Baqir (a) explaining this. Also see, Imam Reda (a) words in debate with scholars over Auli-Mohammad (s) and difference to the nation.

They show the true interpretation and try to break a heart and mind from sorcery. For example "family of the reminder", and 33:6 they explain it to be about succession of Imams (a) one by one.

 

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@InvestigateTruth if you ask Sunnis, they will say that Shiites are going against the apparent meaning in 4:59. They will talk about referral to God and Messenger and say Ulul-Amr are not referred to (despite another verse showing they are to be referred to later in the Surah).

They can't connect it to 4:54 and see the flow from that to Ulul-Amr. So it's a clear false interpretation but it's "apparent" to them. They think it's the clear meaning through false reasoning.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It means what is apparent to them while it's a false interpretation. For example, 4:59, to them "authority" apparently to them means kings type authority.

Another obvious example is "Then we inherited the book to those who we chosen from our servants then of them is who is unjust to himself..." if you focus on the verse alone the sorcery of Satan makes you think the unjust/oppressive to themselves is one of the chosen, but if you recall the emphasis in the verse before that God revealed the book to Mohammad (s) and that "with respect to his servants is aware seeing", the emphasis on "servants", "then we inherited the book to those who we chosen from our servants so of them....", the them by natural language should go back to "Servants" since God is emphasizing on being aware seeing of them.

This also a proof that there is a real sorcery on majority of mankind minds and hearts to not be able to contextualize speech even if it's this close to each other when it comes to the Quran.

Another is 33:6, the Awliya we are only to do good to refers to the same type of authority and relationship of Awla that Nabi (s) has over believers, and the Ulul-Ahram are obviously his family when you keep that in mind. But people decontextualize and split the lines in 33:6 in three off related facts that have nothing to do with each other almost. And if you keep in mind the verses after 33:7-8 it's obviously related to the covenant of Mohammad (s) which is similar to that taken by all Prophets (a).

Another example is the blind man in Surah Abasa. It's obviously a spiritually blind man that no matter how much Mohammad (s) would try to purify he would not be purified, and so the questions are rhetorical, would Mohammad (s) turn away from someone who comes striving? And would he spend time with someone who is too arrogant to listen and it's not upon Mohammad (s) to divert his attention to. Then says "nay! it is a reminder! For who wants to, to remember!", meaning Mohammad (s) would never do such a thing, and the questions are to make us reflect not to spend time on people who don't want guidance and not turn away from people who seek it.

Ok, but I was hoping there would be a Hadith that actually gives an example, saying this is "Apparent"
Anyways, I get back to this "Apparent" later.

I think here was another Hadith you quoted, but I just founded it too:


وروى العياشي عن الصادق 7 أنه سئل عن المحكم والمتشابه فقال : المحكم مايعمل به والمتشابه ما اشتبه على جاهله ، وفي رواية اخرى والمتشابه الذي يشبه بعضه بعضا ، وفي رواية اخرى فأما المحكم فتؤمن به وتعمل به وتدين به ، وأما المتشابه فتؤمن به ولاتعمل به


Al-‘Ayyashi narrated from Al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) that he was asked about the clear (Muhkam) and the ambiguous (Mutashabih). He said: "The clear verses are those which are acted upon, and the ambiguous are those which confuse the ignorant." In another narration, he said: "The Mutishabih are those that resemble each other." In yet another narration, he said: "As for the clear verses, you believe in them, act upon them, and follow them. As for the ambiguous verses, you believe in them but do not act upon them."


What does the word Mutishabih mean in Arabic?

What does it mean "The Mutishabih are those that resemble each other"

Can you give me an example of Mutishabih, and show how or in what sense it resembles to something else. What does that exactly mean?

Then show, how wiuld the Mutishabihat are those which confuse the ignorant.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Usually hadiths show the clear recitation.

well this Hadith tells us otherwise:


- عيون أخبار الرضا (ع): أبي، عن علي، عن أبيه، عن حيون مولى الرضا، عن الرضا عليه السلام قال:
من رد متشابه القرآن إلى محكمه هدي إلى صراط مستقيم، ثم قال عليه السلام: إن في أخبارنا متشابها كمتشابه القرآن، ومحكما كمحكم القرآن، فردوا متشابهها إلى محكمها، ولا تتبعوا متشابهها دون محكمها فتضلوا.


Uyūn Akhbār al-Riḍā (عليه السلام): From my father, from ‘Alī, from his father, from Ḥayyūn, the servant of al-Riḍā, from al-Riḍā (عليه السلام), who said: "Whoever refers the ambiguous parts of the Quran to its clear parts is guided to the straight path." Then he (عليه السلام) said: "Indeed, in our narrations, there are ambiguous ones like the ambiguous parts of the Quran, and clear ones like the clear parts of the Quran. So refer the ambiguous ones to the clear ones, and do not follow the ambiguous ones without referring to the clear ones, lest you go astray."


"Whoever refers the ambiguous parts of the Quran to its clear parts is guided to the straight path"

How does this work @Link ?
can you show an example that how you would refer the ambiguous parts of the Quran to its clear parts?

 

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How does this work @Link ?
can you show an example that how you would refer the ambiguous parts of the Quran to its clear parts?

It should be known that in the case of both hadiths and Quran, the ambiguity is from ignorance and sorcery of Satan. We've already seen hadiths that all of the Quran is clear signs to Ahlulbayt (a) (those given the knowledge). "Nay: it is clear signs in the hearts of those given the knowledge".

We saw that if you come up with a meaning that is not what God intends - you will find many contradictions.

However when things begin to click and it is what God intends, you can verify it with many parts.

I gave an example. One of the easiest ways to do it is to see the mini-context. For example, in 4:59 you would go back some verses and let them flow to 4:59. For example, Ahlulbayt (a) often quote 4:54 to support that Ulul-Amr is the family of Mohammad (s). In fact, much of the Quran, is all giving context to 4:59. So you can refer it to most of Quran in the clear signs way. But people forget most of the Quran and read 4:59 in isolation, and won't even see the flow of 4:54 to that.

Ok, but I was hoping there would be a Hadith that actually gives an example, saying this is "Apparent"
Anyways, I get back to this "Apparent" later.

I think here was another Hadith you quoted, but I just founded it too:


وروى العياشي عن الصادق 7 أنه سئل عن المحكم والمتشابه فقال : المحكم مايعمل به والمتشابه ما اشتبه على جاهله ، وفي رواية اخرى والمتشابه الذي يشبه بعضه بعضا ، وفي رواية اخرى فأما المحكم فتؤمن به وتعمل به وتدين به ، وأما المتشابه فتؤمن به ولاتعمل به


Al-‘Ayyashi narrated from Al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) that he was asked about the clear (Muhkam) and the ambiguous (Mutashabih). He said: "The clear verses are those which are acted upon, and the ambiguous are those which confuse the ignorant." In another narration, he said: "The Mutishabih are those that resemble each other." In yet another narration, he said: "As for the clear verses, you believe in them, act upon them, and follow them. As for the ambiguous verses, you believe in them but do not act upon them."


What does the word Mutishabih mean in Arabic?

What does it mean "The Mutishabih are those that resemble each other"

Can you give me an example of Mutishabih, and show how or in what sense it resembles to something else. What does that exactly mean?

Then show, how wiuld the Mutishabihat are those which confuse the ignorant.

It means there is more then one meaning to it. For example, in "the chosen from our servants so from them are those who are unjust" line can be seen in more then one way. The sentences that are wrong resemble the original sentence, but it's not what God means.

Another example is 4:59 some Quranists for example say Ulul-Amr means experts in each field. For example, you can ask an expert of math in math. An engineer in engineer stuff. And you obey them in those matters.

The traditional Sunni interpretation is that it refers to rulers and governors.

The sentences resemble the original meaning, but the original revealed sentence is different. However, what God wants us to do is contextualize and put words in their proper place.

So the clear meaning is what he wants us to believe and act upon. However the sorcery makes it difficult.

 

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Ok, but I was hoping there would be a Hadith that actually gives an example, saying this is "Apparent"
Anyways, I get back to this "Apparent" later.

Abu Bakr and Umar are examples of this per the hadith itself that you are looking at. To people they are righteous companions promised paradise, and companions supported them, can't turn on their backs over all, and so Ulul-Amr definitely means them to most Muslims. They think the apparent of the Quran is praise of companions who overall supported Abu Bakr and Umar. Anyways, most companions were absent from the "election" of Abu Bakr. The Shiite hadiths view is they were slow in rising to help Ahlulbayt (a), but not that disbelieved in Ali (a) authority. With few followers, Ali (a) spared them death. But to Sunnis, most companions because of how they are praised in some verses of Quran, they believe they can't over all be slow. They would've helped Ali (a) if it was the case that Ali (a) was given Authority.

 

[firedragon]

The ambiguity here is that seal can mean finality or validation. Since the title of 'seal of the prophets' refers to other prophets it would make sense to look at Isaiah's text that refers to Muhammad.

Sorry if I am late to the party. But which other prophets in what text calls other prophets as "seal of prophets"?