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for those people who love to hate on the wealthy...

Octavia156

OTO/EGC
R.E. classroom...? Real estate? Did they have a poster of a kitty trying to regain its grasp of a tree branch with the text, "Keep trying" on it?

And I'm pretty sure Christians consider the Torah part of the Bible. It's usually found in the Holy Bibley thing.

But all the aside, it still doesn't really answer my question of whether people thing that poverty is rewarding (not that people can't find reward lives regardless). And my question kind of goes allow with actual definition of poverty and wealth, not with an ancient poem.

R.E. stands for Religious Education.

I did not know for sure that the Torah is identical to the Old Testament. I looked it up and learned something there - thanks.
The Poster was written in Hebrew, stated as Jewish - so I saw no reason to think it was Christian or Biblical, even if it is from the Old Testament/Torah remember the Old Testament isn't Cristianity.
When I see the word 'proverb' I don't immediately think it must originate in religious text - should I be doing so? I interpreted it like "a saying"... like you have sayings within cultures..

Unless you are choosing it for tantric or asthetic purposes, I don't think poverty is in any way rewarding.
Send any Christian who babbles such to the Lions. God help us if the meek inherit the Earth. T'would be an Idiocracy.
 

Octavia156

OTO/EGC
Hi Shadow Wolf
I really enjoyed reading your post it was an awesome response.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but this:

Society would be so much better off without the race for money that I say let them go. If money were not an issue, the poor could be clothed, fed, and sheltered, everyone could have medical care, education could more available, and so many other problems that revolve around money are solved.

HOW?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
If there is no money, no profit drive, then there is no reason to charge for food, for clothing, and certainly not to teach. Plenty of cultures, tribes, villages, even cities have done that and some still do. Everyone contributes, everyone is fed, clothed, and generally taken care of.
When you add money, suddenly you contribute, but contribution is not enough anymore as now you must be able to afford food, you have to be able to pay for clothing, and you need enough money to keep a roof over your head, and even healing the sick is considered a commodity. There is no natural law that requires money for a farm to feed a community, but in our society money is needed for the seeds, for the land, for the equipment to plant, harvest, etc., for transporting, for preparing the crop to be shipped as food, to be shipped to a store, and to be able to buy the item. What should be a simple and straight forward process becomes a complicated and expensive one that really benefits no one expect those who are providing the money to fund their operations of excess that are around only to make them more money. Sometimes they even try to take a moral high ground and pretend their corruption is a good thing, as is seen in many third world "organic" farming villages. Or any country really where a corporation has stormed in (sometimes even with Congressional backing and approval) and demanded that locals grow cash crops for them instead of sustinance for their villages.
Really, I don't hate wealthy people, I just hate what makes them wealthy, the horrible things done in the pursuit of more money, and the monsters that it has turned some people into.
 

Octavia156

OTO/EGC
If there is no money, no profit drive, then there is no reason to charge for food, for clothing, and certainly not to teach. Plenty of cultures, tribes, villages, even cities have done that and some still do. Everyone contributes, everyone is fed, clothed, and generally taken care of.
When you add money, suddenly you contribute, but contribution is not enough anymore as now you must be able to afford food, you have to be able to pay for clothing, and you need enough money to keep a roof over your head, and even healing the sick is considered a commodity. There is no natural law that requires money for a farm to feed a community, but in our society money is needed for the seeds, for the land, for the equipment to plant, harvest, etc., for transporting, for preparing the crop to be shipped as food, to be shipped to a store, and to be able to buy the item. What should be a simple and straight forward process becomes a complicated and expensive one that really benefits no one expect those who are providing the money to fund their operations of excess that are around only to make them more money. Sometimes they even try to take a moral high ground and pretend their corruption is a good thing, as is seen in many third world "organic" farming villages. Or any country really where a corporation has stormed in (sometimes even with Congressional backing and approval) and demanded that locals grow cash crops for them instead of sustinance for their villages.
Really, I don't hate wealthy people, I just hate what makes them wealthy, the horrible things done in the pursuit of more money, and the monsters that it has turned some people into.

Good luck convincing humanity to give up their iPads and revert to Tribalism or Communism? :faint:

If you really really want that way of life, aren't there indeginous tribals, island communes you can join? I'm not meaning to sound facicious - its just what it seems you are suggesting is that we de-evolve :confused:

The Global shift towards Capitalism is what has led the Technological revolution. Without Capitalism what would be the point in creating and sharing a new idea? Capitalism is solution focused. It drives innovation.

It is BECAUSE people are trying to build billion dollar companies that we have smart phones, GPS, apps, that we have hybrid cars, that we have biotechnics... the list is endless.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Good luck convincing humanity to give up their iPads and revert to Tribalism or Communism? :faint:

If you really really want that way of life, aren't there indeginous tribals, island communes you can join? I'm not meaning to sound facicious - its just what it seems you are suggesting is that we de-evolve :confused:

The Global shift towards Capitalism is what has led the Technological revolution. Without Capitalism what would be the point in creating and sharing a new idea? Capitalism is solution focused. It drives innovation.

It is BECAUSE people are trying to build billion dollar companies that we have smart phones, GPS, apps, that we have hybrid cars, that we have biotechnics... the list is endless.
I don't say we have to revert (and I really wouldn't say "de-evolve" as in many ways those sort of cultures are far better off than our own), but our society as a whole must change our ways, now, or we will damn the entire planet, as with our own species and every other species that shares this planet. I wouldn't say revert to Communism, because it has yet to actually be tried.

And BTW, I do not have a smart phone, I do not need a GPS because I can read a map, and as I said they are things we would loose but they are things we do not actually need and are things that are only serving to dumb people down and waste resources.
And to say Capitalism is needed for inovation, for sharing ideas, and is "solution focused" is to ignore about the first 199,000 years of our species in which there was no Capitalism yet many things were still invented, many things were passed around, many advances and inventions were made, solutions were made, and we done just fine without.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
What this boils down to is some folks have a problem dealing with the fact that many people never have to work a day in their life because their dad or their grandpa already earned money for them.

Life is not fair, get over it.
So, in other words, no, rich people have not necessarily worked harder or smarter. They have not necessarily earned their wealth. In other words, our economic system is not a meritocracy: the rich are not rich because they have earned it, but because the system worked for them, because they were dealt a lucky hand. And likewise, the poor have not earned their poverty. They are not poor because of lack of ambition or laziness, but because the were dealt the wrong cards or because the system works against them.

I truly wouldn't have a problem if wealth truly was a matter of merit, if compensation was linked to the good that the service offered gives to society.

But it's not, and by your own admission.

That is why conservative economic concepts fail. It is why their praise of the rich is based upon a fiction, and their demonization of the poor is based on a lie.

Wyatt, you probably went to a school where everyone got a trophy right?
Better than the school where the kids get trophies or detention simply based on a lottery system.
 

Octavia156

OTO/EGC

And to say Capitalism is needed for inovation, for sharing ideas, and is "solution focused" is to ignore about the first 199,000 years of our species in which there was no Capitalism yet many things were still invented, many things were passed around, many advances and inventions were made, solutions were made, and we done just fine without.

It is evident - the last 199,000yrs of innovation bore diddly squat compared to the last, say 100yrs.



Do you think people would be successfully growing of artificial human organs for transplant (as I saw on the news today) if it wasn't for a Capital investment?
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
It is evident - the last 199,000yrs of innovation bore diddly squat compared to the last, say 100yrs.



Do you think people would be successfully growing of artificial human organs for transplant (as I saw on the news today) if it wasn't for a Capital investment?

I'm a capitalist, myself.

I just don't like fiat currency and abandoning the gold standard.
 

WyattDerp

Active Member
It is evident - the last 199,000yrs of innovation bore diddly squat compared to the last, say 100yrs.

If you track the "speed of innovation", it's contintually been increasing, and I don't see what you think would suggest capitalism is even much of a factor.

Do you think people would be successfully growing of artificial human organs for transplant (as I saw on the news today) if it wasn't for a Capital investment?

Actually, it just requires continuous study and cooperation, and prospering of the sciences. If those are cut off, and all that is left is "invest for profit", then of course the advances of the last 100 years will have been achieved through capitalism. Duh! That's the problem with it, it exterminates anything else, puts a price tag on everything, and then keeps increasing the pressure, for nothing but the sake of profit itself.

Two of our most impressive achievements being cancer and suicide, something that was hardly a thing in those 199,000 years of "diddly squat" occuring... was that because people just didn't live long enough to get sick of life or catch cancer, or because it's not all so rosy as you would like to think it is?

Oh, and **** organ transplants for rich people which ultimately are based on tax funded research. Still the life saver #1 is plumbing. People make that, and built aquaeducts because it made sense, not to make money off them. You are basically, knowingly or not, suggesting the only way a human can achieve anything is to be selfish, petty and alienated, a thing on the market pushing around things on the market. I disagree.

Actually, in many ways capitalism is actually increasingly IMPEDING on progress. You point the progress we made, and give capitalism the credit for it; what we can't really measure is the progress capitalism destroyed and made impossible. How much people and property are destroyed in wars through which a select few profit? How can you know it's not a net loss?

And what price would you pay on the fact that people see themselves as things now, are obsessed about things, and adjust what they think to what they think might give them the edge over their competition; instead of what is true, and good?

Capitalism eats all things it has no use for. The things it has use for are useless, they touch upon nothing that makes life worth living or humans worthy to be called humans.
 

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
.....
The Global shift towards Capitalism is what has led the Technological revolution. Without Capitalism what would be the point in creating and sharing a new idea? Capitalism is solution focused. It drives innovation.

It is BECAUSE people are trying to build billion dollar companies that we have smart phones, GPS, apps, that we have hybrid cars, that we have biotechnics... the list is endless.
:no: Necessity is the mother of invention. Not greed.
Demand is the source of jobs and lasting wealth. Not supply.

It is the average/mean level of education and comfort that drives both invention and wealth. More human brains with a high base of education and the time/comfort to think innovative thoughts is what creates whole new waves of technology and economic dynamos.
Do you really think those few multimillionaire and billionaires are some kind of superhuman megabrains who come up with idea after idea in their secret super-powered laboratories? :rolleyes: Or are they slick con-men (most of whom inherited at least a REALLY BIG leg up) who are succeeding at sucking the short-term gains out of the middle class' long-term dreams? :yes: Link

Keep in mind that the prosperity and comfort seen in the booming middle class that we saw in the 50s, 60s, and early 70s.....and the vast majority of brainchildren (human and otherwise) from that comfortable mass of humanity, got their step up as a direct result of government programs like the GI bill, the Tenessee Valley Power projects, foodstamps, and many others, funded with MUCH higher taxes than we have now (particularly on the wealthy -- greater than 90% on anything earned over your first 2 million).
It is that very large and relatively comfortable middle class, working in a more regulated capitalism that created all of your inventions and wealth. It was they who created a demand for new inventions and services. And they who built and provided them.

Then president Reagan and and most of our media were purchased by the rich. :facepalm: :(

......
True wealth is happiness and contentment within the lifestyle, and it is scattered equally amongst poor and wealthy. ......
I wish all the best for you and your family oldbadger. But your expression needs review. Its a quaint expression, but not true for most people. Study: Money Can Buy Happiness | Inc.com Of particular note is this line..."We conclude that lack of money brings both emotional misery and low life evaluation; similar results were found for anger,"
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
It is evident - the last 199,000yrs of innovation bore diddly squat compared to the last, say 100yrs.



Do you think people would be successfully growing of artificial human organs for transplant (as I saw on the news today) if it wasn't for a Capital investment?


It seems to me that the excessive slant in distribution of wealth does however hinder that progress mightly.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
It is evident - the last 199,000yrs of innovation bore diddly squat compared to the last, say 100yrs.

Good point. We need another moon program -- given all the technological spin offs that program gave us. Oh wait. The moon program was more socialism than capitalism. So sorry.

Maybe we need to map the human genome again, then. Given that program has already returned $144 for ever dollar invested in it.

Oh but wait! Mapping the human genome was more science and socialism than capitalism. Gee. You're side just ain't hanging in there too well.

Perhaps you should have ascribed the innovation of the past 100 or so years to science, rather than to capitalism. That would not be a totally accurate position, but it would be a saner position than to ascribe the innovation to capitalism.
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
We sound very similar.
I've never felt jealous or envious of rich people... i dislike materialism - I feel literally bogged down by my possessions sometimes, and although I'd LOVE to be able to afford beautiful quality clothes, a car that actually accelerates uphill and to go on holidays.. it doesn't make in the slightest bit ANGRY that others can.

Yes I have experienced similar things to you about the very wealthy - some are clearly insane, some are quite selfish. But I've met many that are extremely generous too...

Well I never. Snap! We're not often miserable or depressed, but if we are, we have a 'do we really need this' session, pack up loads of stuff and go down to the second hand and charity shops, and it lifts us enormously. Strange, ain't it?

My wife won't buy expensive clothes, as in 'doesn't want to'. But she loves having her hair and nails 'done' each month, and has a decent vehicle. I ride a foldup bike and keep a bus pass, and frankly I need the exercise. That's one reason why I like the Carpet-cleaning job, I don't need to go to a gym!
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I wish all the best for you and your family oldbadger.

Family? Oh no..... they've all grown up and cleared off. (Thank God) They're all massively upwardly mobile and think we two are absolutely nuts. So they probably agree with your points! :yes:

But your expression needs review. Its a quaint expression, but not true for most people. Study: Money Can Buy Happiness | Inc.com Of particular note is this line..."We conclude that lack of money brings both emotional misery and low life evaluation; similar results were found for anger,"

Oh.... how touching....that you would call anything to do with me (or us) 'quaint'. :yes: You're lovely! Of course it's not true for most people! Most people are tearing at their faces over money, and hols, and status, and kitchens, and ..... stuff. Mrs B and I would like to send our best wishes to all, but should you for any reason decide to stop entering for the rat race, come over to our thinking. Nobody in England needs to go hungry just yet. I know that bad times are coming, but they will need knew mindsets to cope with them.
 

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
....
Oh.... how touching....that you would call anything to do with me (or us) 'quaint'. :yes: You're lovely! Of course it's not true for most people! Most people are tearing at their faces over money, and hols, and status, and kitchens, and ..... stuff. Mrs B and I would like to send our best wishes to all, but should you for any reason decide to stop entering for the rat race, come over to our thinking. Nobody in England needs to go hungry just yet. I know that bad times are coming, but they will need knew mindsets to cope with them.
:yes: Thank you. Although I'm not so sure about the 'bad times'. At least economically. The recovery is coming along almost as well as could be expected (it took 14 years and a world war to fix the last one like this. Thank goodness for at least the minimal regulations that existed this time. Thanks FDR :clap ).
Only question now is 'Will the lead rats keep reaching for more cheese and get themselves 'removed'?' :cover:

Although........there are many other aspects of our civilization, other than economic, that have me greatly concerned for the future of my children. But that is fodder for a different thread(s). ;)
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Hi......

Oh...... it was no big point, just touching on this idea I have......that happiness and contentment and the 'big value' handouts of life are scattered to left and right, high and low, thru' rich and poor. And I remembered how upset you sounded in your after-poll posts.

That's it, really. I have known some very rich people, and noticed that quite a lot suffered from depressions and sadnesses.... not a formula, just a fact. I (probably) could not have coped with your lifestyle, because I would have worried over such a big operation far too much. I would not have been happy. Mrs B is the same....... we found a level where we enjoy life and so can accept anybody else's wealth.

I could not give a toss about taxes. We are allowed pay our annual council tax and services charges thru a whole year, but I pay the whole lot over the counter on day one of the year, so I can forget them. My friends tell me I'm stupid because I could earn a bit of money in interest (sad f--kers) but they don't figure how much it's worth to me to get rid.

My goal is to move on and don't look back. I'm done with the rat race and plan to live off the fruits of my past labors.

I understand what you are saying and deep down know that life's simple pleasures are what is important. I'm trying to have fun while I am still young enough.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
It is evident - the last 199,000yrs of innovation bore diddly squat compared to the last, say 100yrs.
We had the development of atomic energy and computers that caused an explosion of technology, but those came many centuries after Capitalism began to develop, a few centuries after it was wrote about, and after the Industrial Revolution.
You may also find an couple of hours spent researching the things that were developed in times past to be exhilarating. We like to pretend our times are special, it's really not that special. The ancient Romans had cataract operations, the Mayans developed a calendar that is far more accurate than the one we use today, even the toothbrush comes from a much earlier time. As the saying goes, necessity is the mother of invention.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Although I'm not so sure about the 'bad times'. At least economically. The recovery is coming along almost as well as could be expected ....................

Hi again.............

Recovery? You think there will be one, or hope there will be one?
I think we are in for one shocking load of upheaval.........

Whilst many governments do their best to bolster our optimism, some of us feel that we are on the edge of something very deep, rather than on the rise of economic return.

Obviously I hope that you are right. Whilst everybody gets enough food here, my depressive comment was made because half the people in this road wore extra clothing indoors this winter, rather than turn up (or on!) the heating..... they cannot afford the increased gas and electric charges...... and these will go up much much further. Food prices are galloping upwards.

A new furniture store opened and advertised 93 positions. 150,000 people have applied for these jobs. My Boss needs a new receptionist and he cannot actually read all the on-line applications. Impossible.

It goes on.......... Time to adjust our mindsets to cope....:yes:
 
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