For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[Brian2]

No one said he lost his "Sonship". The word alone indicates they arent the same. Your very comments demonstrate they arent the same but then youll turn it immidiately to somehow insinuate they are.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

"He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty" even shows he is not equal to God.

The Apotles definitely never taught they were equal....

"24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."

Please allow me to turn that around for you.
He is sitting at the right hand of the Majesty BUT when God finishes serving Him and putting all things under His feet, it is then that the Son subjects Himself to His Father.

 

[Kathryn]

Feeling free and being free are 2 different things. Dont forget many will say "We did all these things in your name" and Jesus will say "i never knew [them]". I dont think thats where any of us would like to end up, at that time it will be too late to fix it.

God left us the instruction manual and its our choice to follow it or not. There is a definite outcome with either choice. But remember "many take the broad road". Where does it go?

I don't know where it goes. I don't think I'm on that road. Guess we'll both find out the truth one day. I bet we're both in for some surprises. But I do believe that God loves me tenderly, and He or She may love you tenderly too.

 

[seekandfind]

I'm not sure what you mean here.



Please allow me to turn that around for you.
He is sitting at the right hand of the Majesty BUT when God finishes serving Him and putting all things under His feet, it is then that the Son subjects Himself to His Father.

Right, Jesus is not God. Thank you for turning that around.

 

[seekandfind]

I don't know where it goes. I don't think I'm on that road. Guess we'll both find out the truth one day. I bet we're both in for some surprises. But I do believe that God loves me tenderly, and He or She may love you tenderly too.

Do you believe the bible is from God?

 

[Kathryn]

Do you believe the bible is from God?

I believe that the Bible is a collection of works in many different styles over thousands of years. I believe that it is inspired by God. I don't believe it contradicts itself - I believe that we may be too dense to understand all of it. For instance, predestination vs. free will - I believe they work together but I am not sure we can grasp how. I'm OK with that, and other things. What do you believe about the bible?

 

[seekandfind]

I also believe it all inspired by God. I believe that he had it written for a purpose, and that was for us to understand it. Im with you that we wont understand some of it, but thats ok, God said that would happen. Understanding is a lot about timing. Notice what he told Daniel....

"As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.” Daniel 12:4

Did you notice how long the truth is hidden(secret)?

 

[Soapy]

Please allow me to turn that around for you.
He is sitting at the right hand of the Majesty BUT when God finishes serving Him and putting all things under His feet, it is then that the Son subjects Himself to His Father.

God never ‘Serves Jesus’.

God hands him power and authority, and then ‘takes a back seat away from rulership’.

Jesus then rules AS THOUGH HE WERE GOD until all things are brought under subjection to him (to Jesus).

Then, when all things are in subjection to Jesus, Jesus HANDS BACK the rulership (power and authority) to God.

GOD does not hand ABSOLUTELY ALL THINGS to Jesus. God does not give Jesus His eternal throne but remains eternally enthroned throughout Jesus’ reign - Jesus reigning from his own throne.

Therefore, when Jesus hands back the power and authority, God, who is eternally enthroned RESUMES FULL RULERSHIP FROM THAT ETERNAL THRONE… that’s what it means for God to be “All in all”!

We are given exampled prophesies in two places at least in scriptures:

1. Joseph given rulership over Egypt - to rule IN PHAROAH’s name … until the famine is over. Thereafter, Joseph HANDS all power and authority BACK to Pharoah. So Pharoah is again fully ruler over Egypt again! In fact, Pharoah even says to Joseph: ‘In all things you are to be as Pharoah - excepting my throne!’
2. The book of Esther shows the pious man, Mordeciah, given rulership over Persia by the king Xerxes. Xerxes gives Mordeciah His signet ring so that anything Mordeciah writes and seals with the in an edict is AS IF KING XERXES HAD WRITTEN IT HIMSELF. This is tantamount to ‘Handing all power and authority’ to Mordeciah… Mordeciah writes an edict to save the Jews - an edict that brought salvation to the Jews in Persia, overmanding the previous edict that meant death to all Jews in Persia. On the day of Purim mordeciah’s edict was exercised fully and the Jews were saved…. And Mordeciah HANDED THE SIGNET RING BACK TO KING XERXES… who took back full rulership over Persia

I have written about these examples many times before in relationship to Christ being granted rulership until the event he was tasked with was over … does no one else recognise the parallel truth of these prophetic revelations?

 

[Brian2]

Right, Jesus is not God. Thank you for turning that around.

I suppose you don't notice that God is serving Jesus now and it is only when all things are under the Son's feet that the Son also will be subject to the Father.
The Son of course is the King of the Kingdom forever but the Son is both the Son, who subjects Himself to His Father, and is also a man who subjects Himself to His Father who is His God now, since Jesus is a man.

 

[Brian2]

I also believe it all inspired by God. I believe that he had it written for a purpose, and that was for us to understand it. Im with you that we wont understand some of it, but thats ok, God said that would happen. Understanding is a lot about timing. Notice what he told Daniel....

"As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.” Daniel 12:4

Did you notice how long the truth is hidden(secret)?

Do you think what was said to Daniel at Dan 12:4 refers to the whole Bible or to the prophecy that had just been given to Daniel?
Do you think that when the prophecy is unsealed, that it will still be sealed except to the Watch Tower Society?

 

[Brian2]

God never ‘Serves Jesus’.

God hands him power and authority, and then ‘takes a back seat away from rulership’.

Jesus then rules AS THOUGH HE WERE GOD until all things are brought under subjection to him (to Jesus).

Then, when all things are in subjection to Jesus, Jesus HANDS BACK the rulership (power and authority) to God.

GOD does not hand ABSOLUTELY ALL THINGS to Jesus. God does not give Jesus His eternal throne but remains eternally enthroned throughout Jesus’ reign - Jesus reigning from his own throne.

Therefore, when Jesus hands back the power and authority, God, who is eternally enthroned RESUMES FULL RULERSHIP FROM THAT ETERNAL THRONE… that’s what it means for God to be “All in all”!

We are given exampled prophesies in two places at least in scriptures:

1. Joseph given rulership over Egypt - to rule IN PHAROAH’s name … until the famine is over. Thereafter, Joseph HANDS all power and authority BACK to Pharoah. So Pharoah is again fully ruler over Egypt again! In fact, Pharoah even says to Joseph: ‘In all things you are to be as Pharoah - excepting my throne!’
2. The book of Esther shows the pious man, Mordeciah, given rulership over Persia by the king Xerxes. Xerxes gives Mordeciah His signet ring so that anything Mordeciah writes and seals with the in an edict is AS IF KING XERXES HAD WRITTEN IT HIMSELF. This is tantamount to ‘Handing all power and authority’ to Mordeciah… Mordeciah writes an edict to save the Jews - an edict that brought salvation to the Jews in Persia, overmanding the previous edict that meant death to all Jews in Persia. On the day of Purim mordeciah’s edict was exercised fully and the Jews were saved…. And Mordeciah HANDED THE SIGNET RING BACK TO KING XERXES… who took back full rulership over Persia

I have written about these examples many times before in relationship to Christ being granted rulership until the event he was tasked with was over … does no one else recognise the parallel truth of these prophetic revelations?

God serves Jesus by putting all Jesus enemies under His feet.
Jesus then becomes subject to His Father but Jesus still rules the Kingdom forever as various passages tell us. (eg Isa 9:7) Just as Joseph would still be ruling even after the famine crisis even if He hands the Kingdom back to Pharaoh.
If you want to say there is more than one Kingdom, I would say that is an interpretation problem you have.

 

[Soapy]

God serves Jesus by putting all Jesus enemies under His feet.

Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’”

If you can produce even one verse where GOD SERVES JESUS then you might have something to say about this. But ‘GOD IS NO SERVANT’.

Jesus then becomes subject to His Father but Jesus still rules the Kingdom forever as various passages tell us. (eg Isa 9:7) Just as Joseph would still be ruling even after the famine crisis even if He hands the Kingdom back to Pharaoh.

When the famine crisis was over Joseph hands back full rulership to Pharoah - who gave it to him. In the first place.

If you want to say there is more than one Kingdom, I would say that is an interpretation problem you have.

There is one kingdom of Heaven and there us one kingdom of earth (Creation).

The Heavenly kingdom is the realm of Spirits: God and His holy angels.

The kingdom of earth is in temporary rulership by Lucifer, now more commonly known as [the] Satan.

Satan is the STEWARDING Angel over creation… Stewarding… awaiting the enthronement of the true king. A Steward, in case you don’t know nor understand, is a temporary ruler who sits in place while the true ruler is not yet in place or has been out of that place for some reason. This ‘Steward’ (could be by a different term, e.g. Deputy) must hand over rulership to the true ruler at the appropriate time.

There are references to Satan being in charge of this created realm:

• In the wilderness, Satan tempts Jesus to assume the rulership without the due process Jesus must go through. Satan speaks in deviousness telling Jesus that the kingdom is his own to give to whom he will - and he will give it to jesus if jesus bows in worship to him. This is a classic half-lie but Jesus sees through it and quotes from the Old Testament:
  • “[Away from me, Satan!] For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”
• Another: Jesus, when he has conquered ‘the world’ of sin and now Satan knows his time in Heaven is done (God permitted Satan to stay in Heaven until Satan was proved fully deceitful, after all accusations have been proven against him), says of Satan and the world Satan is stewarding:
  • “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”
• And Jesus warns humanity that now that Satan has been thrown out of Heaven, Satan is exceedingly angry against the world… notice that Jesus calls him ‘The Prince’ of this world…a euphemism for ‘steward’ as in, ‘while the king is not in place the prince stands in his place’:
  • “I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, “ (John 14:30)
  • “because the prince of this world now stands condemned.” (John 16:11)
  • “Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.” (Rev 12:12)

1. The kingdom of Heaven - a Spirit realm ruled by God, who is Spirit…
2. The Created world - a physical limited world ruled by a created man…

 

[Brian2]

Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’”

If you can produce even one verse where GOD SERVES JESUS then you might have something to say about this. But ‘GOD IS NO SERVANT’.

God is not a servant, but God has served humanity since the beginning.

When the famine crisis was over Joseph hands back full rulership to Pharoah - who gave it to him. In the first place.

How do you know that. I would think that Pharaoh would have kept him on because he proved himself so good.
He would have served the King of Egypt as second in charge for many years more,
But I'm not going by things we are not told. We are told that Jesus

Ezek 37:23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols or detestable images, or with any of their transgressions. I will save them from all their apostasies by which they sinned, and I will cleanse them. Then they will be My people, and I will be their God. 24My servant David will be king over them, and there will be one shepherd for all of them. They will follow My ordinances and keep and observe My statutes. 25They will live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They will live there forever with their children and grandchildren, and My servant David will be their prince forever.…

Yes Jesus is still called God's servant because He is still a man.
You remember Phil 2 where we are told that the pre human Jesus took the form of a servant and became a man.
Then He rose from the dead as a glorified man and went to heaven as one like a son of man and was given a kingdom.

Dan 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Which Kingdom is He ruling over now? To me there is just one Kingdom and that is the one Jesus rules over now.
Which Kingdom is He going to hand back to God the Father?
When He becomes subject to God the Father, to me it sounds like things are returned to the way they were before Jesus came to earth, when the Son was subject to His Father as a Son.

1Cor 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When rall things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

Eph 1:20,21. . . that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Rev 1:5,6. . . and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

And that "all things" includes things in the spiritual realm.

 

[seekandfind]

I suppose you don't notice that God is serving Jesus now and it is only when all things are under the Son's feet that the Son also will be subject to the Father.
The Son of course is the King of the Kingdom forever but the Son is both the Son, who subjects Himself to His Father, and is also a man who subjects Himself to His Father who is His God now, since Jesus is a man.

Jesus served his disciples. Did that make them Jesus or even equal to Jesus? Of course not. Dont twist scripture for your beliefs- believe scripture. God is not doing what Jesus tells him to do, God is doing his own will of appointing his Son as King. Nothing of what you claim puts Jesus above or equal to God.

"For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him." -1 Cor 15:27

 

[seekandfind]

Do you think what was said to Daniel at Dan 12:4 refers to the whole Bible or to the prophecy that had just been given to Daniel?
Do you think that when the prophecy is unsealed, that it will still be sealed except to the Watch Tower Society?

It refers to the prophecy in Daniel. But Daniel didnt actually hide the scriptures until the time of the end, he wrote it before he died. People were reading it for centuries. The point that im showing is that God reveals truth in His time.

 

[Soapy]

I have updated my previous post … I was in a meeting and could not finish so please re-read it.

God is not a servant, but God has served humanity since the beginning.

God is not SERVING humanity. God gives to his creation (and Humanity specifically) that which they require from His bountiful source.

Someone who SERVES gives from another’s bounty. A servant serves from his master’s bounty. A servant is paid to serve… A servant serves from the directive of a higher authority.

A Father does not ‘SERVE’ his children. I’m sure you know exactly why you chose to misuse the term and would not use if this in any other situation. I urge you not to play such silly games as it will give you a reputation you really do not want to be associated with!!!

How do you know that. I would think that Pharaoh would have kept him on because he proved himself so good.
He would have served the King of Egypt as second in charge for many years more,
But I'm not going by things we are not told. We are told that Jesus

It is evident that the rulership of Egypt would have been handed back to Pharoah after the famine was over. Even you yourself says that Joseph would even be only A SECOND in charge… not ‘IN CHARGE’. Moreover, the then present Pharoah died and the new Pharoah did not regard the deeds of Joseph. I’m sure you can see his that would be… the new Pharoah has no regard for nor delight in Israelite greatness! This can be seen by the fact that the next chapter in the time of Moses, the Israelites were in SLAVERY to the Egyptians.

Ezek 37:23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols or detestable images, or with any of their transgressions. I will save them from all their apostasies by which they sinned, and I will cleanse them. Then they will be My people, and I will be their God. 24My servant David will be king over them, and there will be one shepherd for all of them. They will follow My ordinances and keep and observe My statutes. 25They will live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They will live there forever with their children and grandchildren, and My servant David will be their prince forever.…

Yes Jesus is still called God's servant because He is still a man.

Yes, Jesus is a man and as a man who does the Will of his Father he is called ‘Son’.

You remember Phil 2 where we are told that the pre human Jesus took the form of a servant and became a man.

No, Brian2, YOU and other trinity believers are misled to believe in a pre-human Jesus. The truth is that the verse is saying that Jesus, a man ENDOWED WITH THE POWER OF GOD (the form of God), DID NOT CONSIDER TO MISUSE THAT POWER (aka: the temptations in the wilderness!) BUT INSTEAD CONSIDERED HIMSELF AS A SERVANT (and give of his Father’s holy resource!). I think someone redefined the word ‘GRASP AT’ to mean ‘Holding onto’ but the truth is that it means ‘TO REACH OUT TO TRY TO TAKE HOLD OF’. So the true reading is that ‘Though he had the power of God he did not think TO TRY TO BECOME LIKE GOD BUT INSTEAD MADE HIMSELF AS A SERVANT… it is a ridiculous thing to say that he WAS GOD BUT DECIDED THAT BEING GOD WAS NOT WORTHWHILE… that he did not desire to HOLD ONTO BEING GOD..!!!?

Moreover, Jesus is supposed to have ‘EMPTIED HIMSELF’ OF BEING GOD yet is also supposed to have REMAINED BEING GOD (100% God or any percentage GOD is s nonsense argument - there us no such thing as ‘BEING PARTIALLY GOD’. And ‘God in man cannot be God’ … God is Spirit and Spirit alone and the Father and the Father alone.

Then He rose from the dead as a glorified man and went to heaven as one like a son of man and was given a kingdom.

Dan 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

I’m so glad you recognise the prophesy, Brian2.

Which Kingdom is He ruling over now? To me there is just one Kingdom and that is the one Jesus rules over now.
Which Kingdom is He going to hand back to God the Father?

Jesus is ruling over the Father’s kingdom which is Heaven… He is battling the angelic order which has been abused by Satan. This Heaven kingdom INCLUDES the earthly kingdom over which Satan is a Steward… which accounts for all the wrongness going on in BOTH Heaven and on earth.

Which kingdom is Jesus handing back: Well, hd is handing it back to GOD, to the Father: YHWH, therefore it is the Father’s kingdom: Heaven.. in which earth is likened to a ROOM in a MANSION of his Father!!!

When He becomes subject to God the Father, to me it sounds like things are returned to the way they were before Jesus came to earth, when the Son was subject to His Father as a Son.

You mean that there is no change… Brian2, your struggles are because you are trying to create your own narrative - and it’s not working!!

Was the world in Egypt the same after the famine as before it? A new world order is to be put in place. Pharoah regains FULL AUTHORITY and RULERSHIP POWERS… notice that in ALL EXAMPLES the THRONE OF THE PRIMARY RULER is NEVER USURPED: ‘EXCEPT FOR MY THRONE you are to rule AS THOUGH YOU WERE PHAROAH HIMSELF’. In the same way, Jesus rules AS THOUGH he were God BUT IS NOT GOD since GOD is ETERNALLY ENTHRONED in the primary rulership position.

1Cor 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When rall things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

Yes Brian2, Jesus is currently ruling AS IF HE WERE GOD BUT IS NOT GOD. He rules IN POSITION OF GOD - not ‘IS GOD’!! So when Jesus fulfils his task he HANDS HIS COMPLETED WORK TO HIM WHO GAVE HIM THE WORK and the power and authority is taken from Jesus So God is full ruler in all aspects.

How are you reading those words you quote and not understanding the simplicity and truth of them??

Eph 1:20,21. . . that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Brian2, be careful when reading and providing info from highly summaries sources. You cannot fully express what Jesus does in Heaven from a few words … a verse… in a book in scriptures: Have you checked out the extended version as shown in the book of Revelation!!

Jesus is seated in the Heavenly realm … What can you not understand: Imagine a wealthy man who adopts a youngster and calls him ‘Son’ because the lad so greatly pleased the man. The wealthy man sets the lad in the highest position in his company (that highest position is evidently LESS THAN HIS OWN!!!) and gives the lad the highest title in the company, way above all other titles in the company.

And what is that title? In the case of Jesus, there is no higher name than ‘YHWH’. But, Brian2, IT IS A NAME… it doesn’t mean Jesus suddenly becomes THE PERSON who had that name from the time he gave it to Moses. The name MEANS ‘Always is’… aka: ETERNAL. But ‘Eternal’ from that point onwards… it isn’t backwards applicable… Jesus is NOW IMMORTAL AND WILL REMAIN IMMORTAL ETERNALLY. The angels are Spirits which are immortal but are DESTROYABLE as shown after their judgement of those who are wicked.

Rev 1:5,6. . . and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

YES BRIAN2… Jesus is given a KINGDOM TO RULE OVER… the kingdom of earth … on the ethereal seat of his ancestral Father, KING DAVID.

Brian2, you quote scriptures and do not understand what you are quoting - thinking you are denying exactly what I’ve been saying to you!!!

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

And that "all things" includes things in the spiritual realm.

Brian2, Cor 1:26 is FALSELY claiming the created world is a creation of Jesus.., Jesus DID NOT EXIST before creation. Jesus is PROPHESIED ALL THROUGH THE OLD TESTAMENT. You should have noticed by now that ALL CLAIMS THAT JESUS CREATED AS A PRE-EXISTENT /what?/ is from the NEW TESTAMENT which is a GREEK TRANSLATION BY TRINITARIAN CLAIMS UNDERWRITTEN BY THE ROMAN EMPIRE UNDER EMPEROR CONSTANTINE who had no interest in Christianity - he was a PAGAN ROMAN MULTIPLE-GODS BELIEVER.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus served his disciples. Did that make them Jesus or even equal to Jesus? Of course not. Dont twist scripture for your beliefs- believe scripture. God is not doing what Jesus tells him to do, God is doing his own will of appointing his Son as King. Nothing of what you claim puts Jesus above or equal to God.

"For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him." -1 Cor 15:27

Yes God serves us humans. I'm just saying what the scriptures tell us. I'm not twisting it to mean anything beyond what it says.
At the moment it seems that it is just Jesus who is all things to all people. He is the King of the Kingdom of God, but obviously not above His God and Father.
Jesus remains King of the Kingdom of God forever.

Ezek 37:23....Then they will be My people, and I will be their God. 24My servant David will be king over them, and there will be one shepherd for all of them. They will follow My ordinances and keep and observe My statutes. 25They will live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They will live there forever with their children and grandchildren, and My servant David will be their prince forever.…

And David is one of those people who has YHWH as His God, because He is a man. (Son of Man)
But also this David is God because He is the Son of God, the heir who inherits and owns all that belongs to His Father. (John 16:15, Heb 1:4, Phil 2:9)
(And Phil 2:9 is another place where the Watch Tower Society has decided to add to the scriptures and change the meaning of them. Again they add "other" as in Col 1:16,17. They don't like the idea that Jesus inherits His Father's name.)

Psalm 10:16
YHWH is King forever and ever;
Nations have perished from His land.


Revelation 11:15
Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”

Zech 14:9 On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth— YHWH alone, and His name alone.

 

[Brian2]

It refers to the prophecy in Daniel. But Daniel didnt actually hide the scriptures until the time of the end, he wrote it before he died. People were reading it for centuries. The point that im showing is that God reveals truth in His time.

God reveals the meaning at the end times. But is it just to the Watch Tower Society? a group who have been wrong a number of times about the meaning of end times prophecies?

 

[seekandfind]

Jesus remains King of the Kingdom of God forever.

Ezek 37:23....Then they will be My people, and I will be their God. 24My servant David will be king over them, and there will be one shepherd for all of them. They will follow My ordinances and keep and observe My statutes. 25They will live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They will live there forever with their children and grandchildren, and My servant David will be their prince forever.…

Its obvious that to you Jesus is all things. And i get it i used to believe that too until i found out about Yhwh.

You can claim God is serving us but that doesnt make us equal to or above him....which was your point of showing God serves Jesus.

You state Jesus is King forever while the very scripture you posted says otherwise. It clearly states he will be "their prince forever" which backs up the scripture i keep posting.....

"Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father........then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." - 1 Cor 15:24-28

This clearly shows its not Jesus' Kingdom, it is his God's Kingdom. Jesus does rule it for a time but gives it back so "that God(not Jesus) may be all things to everyone."

I know its a tough pill to swallow, lowering Jesus, but it doesnt change who Jesus is or what he did for mankind, it just means he isnt at the level you worship him at. There is One above him and you need to know Him.

"This means everlasting life: thier coming to know you, the only true God, and the one you sent, Jesus Christ." -John 17:3

 

[seekandfind]

God reveals the meaning at the end times. But is it just to the Watch Tower Society? a group who have been wrong a number of times about the meaning of end times prophecies?

Why are you so hung up on the Watch Tower?

 

[Sargonski]

It’s great that you have ditched trinity fallacy and come to AN UNDERSTANDING of the truth of God, who is YHWH by name, Father, by title.

Unfortunately you erred in your final assumption that ‘Everything was created through Jesus’.

In fact, it does not even make sense to say GOD ‘created all things through Jesus’…

That claim is still TRINITARIAN and so you have not yet fully ditched the trinitarian fallacy that you claim you thought you had done. But it’s a start… and a good start!!

May you be guided through the Spirit of God (most often PERSONIFIED by trinitarian fallacy and called ‘The Holy Spirit’. The fallacy idea is that by stripping the Spirit of God of its possesional attribute (‘… OF GOD’), it is easier to make a claim that the Spirit of God is an independent PERSON in the three-Person trinity God)

As you attempt to explain how ‘Jesus’ (properly, you need to say, ‘the Son’, as there was no ‘Jesus’, let alone ‘Christ’, in the beginning. And by projecting into a hugely later event - the birth and naming of the messiah - you are claiming a pre-existent being who was WITH GOD yet scriptures says GOD WAS ALONE… What you don’t see is that it cannot be claimed that God was alone in the beginning if ‘the Son’ was with him…!!

Moreover, scriptures, many many times declares GOD as the creator, and, indeed, His very title, ‘The Father’, means:

• ‘He that is the Creator’
• ‘He that brings into being’
• ‘He that gives life’

Which of those title wordings apply to ‘the Son’?

And, in any case, how could the Son have been the medium THROUGH which God created - brought creation into being - gave life to creation? Are you not seeing the corruption in verses that Trinitarians have modified in their vain attempt to dupe believers into thinking this irreverent ideology?

Remember these things:

1. Scriptures says that GOD ALONE created all things
2. If another prominent agent was involved then it cannot be claimed that Hod alone was the creator (Note that Angels are not prominent agents in the creation of the world. They are strictly denied glorification to any degree)
3. If the claim is that the Son created all things then how could it ‘THROUGH’ him that creation came to be?
4. The Son is at no time called ‘The Father [of Creation]’ which would be expected if indeed he was the CREATOR
5. Neither Genesis, nor any Old Testament books, ever declare, present, speak of, a ‘Son’ existing WITH GOD. The prophesies of ‘A Son’ refer to ‘The Seed of s Woman’, ‘A Servant of God’, ‘The Messiah’ (which is ‘the Christ’ in the Greek/English language - both meaning “The Anointed one” - the anointing with the Spirit[ual oil] of God at the baptism that John the Baptist performed : Acts 10:37-38, prophesied at Isaiah 42:1 and other places!!)
6. Jesus Christ, the man adopted by God on whom God placed his Spirit to empower (‘You are my Son; this day I have become your Father!)
7. And ‘SON’ means: ‘He who does the works of the Father’ which Jesus Christ defined to the Jews saying, ‘I only said that God is my Father; if I am not doing his works then do not believe me - or else believe on the works themselves!’
8. …There is more but I cannot tax you over this…

interesting conversation thusfar --

1) does scripture say God alone created all things ? curious about this one .. not claiming otherwise -Yet- like to assess the passage support as certainly not in the first part of Genesis .. the first part of the first of the two stories of creation to be specific .. Perhaps elsewhere in the OT .. and needs to be restricted OT .. or at least distinguished between OT and NT .. one can not just throw in Paul and have it be relevant .. for slightly complicated but generally understood and agreed upon reasons. .. we can get into NT later but can not criss-cross ... so for now .. "And the Word was God" and all the platonic Philosophy - does not Count

My second comment is the identity of this Creator God ... "The Name" of the Primordial God of Creation -- and then .. we can talk the NT question .. of God and involvement of Jesus in Creation .. relative place in the pecking order .. or relative equality .. as the lovers of the trinity heresy would proclaim .. and I use "heresy" because that you both have already assumed .. and I do not contest.

If we are talking the God of Jesus .. the one Jesus prays to... is separate from .. who adopted him as a man of 30. -- we have to know which God we are talking about .. ? Need to know the identity of "Daddy" lads .. for the story to make any sense, at all.

and so to begin this quest .. answering the question .. which I will not do but give a clue .. the name is not 'YHWH" - or any other names for the God of Moses .. this is Not the God of Jesus .. nor Judaism for that matter but that is another story .. and nor do you have to agree that YHWH is not the one. What you do need to do .. is know the names of the other contenders in the Ring.

Once you have identified the other Gods in contention for the epiphet "Most High" .. then we can start to sort out where Jesus is located in the relative pecking order.

and with that the Floor is open