Freewill and Volition

[Ben Masada]

First this is not metaphorical this is literal and we must interpret it this way to get a proper and true understanding.

+++Ben: That's right, I agree with you that's literal. When Isaiah says that the Suffering Servant of chapter 53 is the Messiah, and that he identities that Servant
with Israel, he does mean in a literal manner. Read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.

Mighty God(captial G) is only used to represent the true God never metephorically.

+++Ben: That's according to the KJV translation. The original in Hebrew has no such specification.

The Immanuel Prophecy Isaiah 7
10 Moreover the LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying, 11 “Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above.”
12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!”
13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

+++Ben: You have to let the Bible explain itself instead of sticking your assumptions into it. Read Amos 5:2. The virgin is Israel and the son is Judah if you allow Scripture to interpret itself. According to Isaiah 7:15, that son whose name is Immanuel, will live on cards and honew, which means a fresh renewal. Then, if you read verse 22, cards and honey will be the food of ALL who remain in the Land. Why remain in the Land? After the Ten Tribes were removed by Assyria. And whose Land? Now, read Isaiah 8:8.
That's the Land of Judah, which Isaiah identifies as the Land of Immanuel. That's how one allows the Scripture to intepret itself.

15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. 17 The LORD will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your father’s house—days that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah.”

+++Ben: Verse 17 is so clear whom Isaiah is talking about, that I find absurd how you can think of anyone else besides Judah. Only faith can blind that much.


correct me if I am wrong
I have read most of the reasons why Jews do not believe in JESUS CHRIST
alot of it has to do with the Jew's saying he did not fulfill certain scriptures.

+++Ben: I believe in Jesus, but not that he was Christ or Messiah. This idea started with Paul in Antioch. Read Acts 11:26.

next the common argument I have read by Christians is they say he will fufill the scriptures on his second coming.

+++Ben: That's nonsense! The dead once dead will never come again. Read Job 7:9,10; 10:21; 14:12.

So some were filled on his first coming and the rest will be filled on his second coming according to the Christians.

+++Ben: What are you, not a Christian? A Christian by definition is the one who believes that Jesus was Christ. If you do, you are a Christian and there is no cop-out.

would you agree with this?

+++Ben: Now, you have an idea of how much I can agree.

Ben

 

[drs]

Ben

Then my freind we will have to wait and watch GOD deliver his people Israel according to the prophices in scripture. Then may you know and believe in LORD JESUS CHRIST as GOD and SAVIOUR amen.

 

[AK4]

+++Ben: That's nonsense! The dead once dead will never come again. Read Job 7:9,10; 10:21; 14:12.

So Ben then you completely ignore these two instances of God bringing back the dead--

1 KINGS 17:17-24 NKJ
17 Now it happened after these things that the son of the woman who owned the house became sick. And his sickness was so serious that there was no breath left in him.
18 So she said to Elijah, "What have I to do with you, O man of God? Have you come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to kill my son?"
19 And he said to her, "Give me your son." So he took him out of her arms and carried him to the upper room where he was staying, and laid him on his own bed.
20 Then he cried out to the Lord and said, "O Lord my God, have You also brought tragedy on the widow with whom I lodge, by killing her son?"
21 And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the Lord and said, "O Lord my God, I pray, let this child's soul come back to him."
22 Then the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived.
23 And Elijah took the child and brought him down from the upper room into the house, and gave him to his mother. And Elijah said, "See, your son lives!"
24 Then the woman said to Elijah, "Now by this I know that you are a man of God, and that the word of the Lord in your mouth is the truth."

2 KINGS 4:17-37 NKJ
17 And the woman conceived, and bore a son when the appointed time had come, of which Elisha had told her.
18 So the child grew. Now it happened one day that he went out to his father, to the reapers.
19 And he said to his father, "My head, my head!" So he said to a servant, "Carry him to his mother."
20 When he had taken him and brought him to his mother, he sat on her knees till noon, and then died.
21 And she went up and laid him on the bed of the man of God, shut the door upon him, and went out.
22 Then she called to her husband, and said, "Please send me one of the young men and one of the donkeys, that I may run to the man of God and come back."
23 So he said, "Why are you going to him today? It is neither the New Moon nor the Sabbath." And she said, "It is well."
24 Then she saddled a donkey, and said to her servant, "Drive, and go forward; do not slacken the pace for me unless I tell you."
25 So she departed, and went to the man of God at Mount Carmel. And so it was, when the man of God saw her afar off, that he said to his servant Gehazi, "Look, there is the Shunammite woman.
26 "Please run now to meet her, and say to her, `Is it well with you? Is it well with your husband? Is it well with the child?'" And she answered, "It is well."
27 Now when she came to the man of God at the hill, she caught him by the feet, but Gehazi came near to push her away. But the man of God said, "Let her alone; for her soul is in deep distress, and the Lord has hidden it from me, and has not told me."
28 And she said, "Did I ask a son of my lord? Did I not say, `Do not deceive me'?"
29 Then he said to Gehazi, "Get yourself ready, and take my staff in your hand, and be on your way. If you meet anyone, do not greet him; and if anyone greets you, do not answer him; but lay my staff on the face of the child."
30 And the mother of the child said, "As the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you." So he arose and followed her.
31 Now Gehazi went on ahead of them, and laid the staff on the face of the child; but there was neither voice nor hearing. Therefore he went back to meet him, and told him, saying, "The child has not awakened."
32 And when Elisha came into the house, there was the child, lying dead on his bed.
33 He went in therefore, shut the door behind the two of them, and prayed to the Lord.
34 And he went up and lay on the child, and put his mouth on his mouth, his eyes on his eyes, and his hands on his hands; and he stretched himself out on the child, and the flesh of the child became warm.
35 He returned and walked back and forth in the house, and again went up and stretched himself out on him; then the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.
36 And he called Gehazi and said, "Call this Shunammite woman." So he called her. And when she came in to him, he said, "Pick up your son."
37 So she went in, fell at his feet, and bowed to the ground; then she picked up her son and went out.

(continued to next post)

 

[AK4]

And this is just in the OT! And so therefore i ask you--

Ge 18:14 - Is anything too hard for the Lord? I will return to you at the appointed time next year and Sarah will have a son."
Jer 32:17 - "Ah, Sovereign Lord, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you.

Jer 32:27 - "I am the Lord, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me?

Luke 16:29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30 "'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead

Also you dont understand those Job verses. It convienant that you leave out the verses after 14:12

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.


If Job is dead in verse 12 and stays dead forever, then how does he answer Gods call in verse 15?

 

[AK4]

+++Ben: What are you, not a Christian? A Christian by definition is the one who believes that Jesus was Christ. If you do, you are a Christian and there is no cop-out.


Yes this is true. But the problem here is these "christains" actually dont believe Jesus Christ is the Christ (Just look at all their different contradictory doctrines). They dont truly/fully believe that is why Jesus says this about them

Re 2:9 -I know your afflictions and your poverty--yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan
The book of Revelations is symbolized book, therefore its meanings are symbolised. so this isnt saying christains are saying they are literal jews, its talking about those who say they are spiritual jews (Check the book of Romans) but Jesus says they are not, they are of the synagogue of Satan (all these different denominations who say they are christains/a spiritual jew)

 

[Ben Masada]

I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

What are you talking about? There is no such a thing as Satan. We Jews don't believe in Satan. Satan for us is but a concept to illustrate the evil inclination
in man.

Ben: <*)))><

 

[AK4]

What are you talking about? There is no such a thing as Satan. We Jews don't believe in Satan. Satan for us is but a concept to illustrate the evil inclination
in man.

Ben: <*)))><

And there is no spiritual realm either. The archangels Micheal and Gabriel dont exist either. Abram had lunch with someone he decided to be the Lord and Sarai laughed at the vision. *sarcasm*

 

[Ben Masada]

And there is no spiritual realm either. The archangels Micheal and Gabriel dont exist either. Abram had lunch with someone he decided to be the Lord and Sarai laughed at the vision. *sarcasm*

Except for the spiritual realm, you are right about angels or archangels. They do not exist as beings. And what happened to Abraham with having lunch with the Lord,
you are wrong by saying that he decided. He didn't decide. It did happen, but in a vision.

Ben: <*)))><

 

[AK4]

Except for the spiritual realm, you are right about angels or archangels. They do not exist as beings. And what happened to Abraham with having lunch with the Lord,
you are wrong by saying that he decided. He didn't decide. It did happen, but in a vision.

Ben: <*)))><

Interesting you would say they dont exist. So if they dont exist whos back parts was Mose looking at? It says it was the Lord, but im sure you dont believe that the Lord can be human

 

[Ben Masada]

Interesting you would say they dont exist. So if they dont exist whos back parts was Mose looking at? It says it was the Lord, but im sure you dont believe that the Lord can be human

Have you ever read the book "The Guide for the Perplexed" by Moses Maimonides?
He was a great Philosopher, Theologian and Medical Doctor. He is such an important
person among us the Jews that we use to say about him that "From Moses to Moses, never arose another like Moses." He says in this book of his that it was in a vision
when Moses was allowed to see the back parts of God. As you know, in a vision one can see God even with four heads of beasts.

Ben: <*)))><

 

[AK4]

Have you ever read the book "The Guide for the Perplexed" by Moses Maimonides?
He was a great Philosopher, Theologian and Medical Doctor. He is such an important
person among us the Jews that we use to say about him that "From Moses to Moses, never arose another like Moses." He says in this book of his that it was in a vision
when Moses was allowed to see the back parts of God. As you know, in a vision one can see God even with four heads of beasts.

Ben: <*)))><

The only problem i see with him saying it was a vision is that throughout the Word if someone was seeing a vision it plainly says so but it doesnt mention this with Moses seeing the Lords back parts.

 

[Ben Masada]

The only problem i see with him saying it was a vision is that throughout the Word if someone was seeing a vision it plainly says so but it doesnt mention this with Moses seeing the Lords back parts.

That's exactly the point. God does not have back parts. God is incorporeal. But in a
vision, He can have everything we do. That's when it's perfectly okay to refer to God
in an anthropomorphic manner. That's Maimonides rationalization. Otherwise, we
would be infecting the Tanach with contradictions.

Ben: <*)))><

 

[AK4]

That's exactly the point. God does not have back parts. God is incorporeal. But in a
vision, He can have everything we do. That's when it's perfectly okay to refer to God
in an anthropomorphic manner. That's Maimonides rationalization. Otherwise, we
would be infecting the Tanach with contradictions.

Ben: <*)))><

Rationalization that isnt based in scripture is a bad thing ben, you should know this. Its no different from what the christain church does. If it doesnt mention vision anywhere near this event then its not a vision. If it doesnt match any other reference to how all other scriptures mentions a vision in scripture then this rationalization of making it a vision is not scriptural.

So in other words this rationalization is actually infecting all other scripture.

 

[Ben Masada]

Rationalization that isnt based in scripture is a bad thing ben, you should know this. Its no different from what the christain church does. If it doesnt mention vision anywhere near this event then its not a vision. If it doesnt match any other reference to how all other scriptures mentions a vision in scripture then this rationalization of making it a vision is not scriptural.

So in other words this rationalization is actually infecting all other scripture.

I was expecting to hear that from you. Christians never fail. That's why they want the Bible to mean literally what it says in order to exercise faith. That's a people who cannot reason.

Ben: <*)))><

 

[AK4]

I was expecting to hear that from you. Christians never fail. That's why they want the Bible to mean literally what it says in order to exercise faith. That's a people who cannot reason.

Ben: <*)))><

Where did you get that i was saying that christains never fail? I was saying the opposite.

So where is the reasoning/rationalization of saying something was a vision where no where near this event is there a mention of a vision. Unlike in all the visions it clearly states it is a vision. Thats not scripturally rationalizing/reasoning, thats just unscripturally MANS reasoning

 

[Ben Masada]

Where did you get that i was saying that christains never fail? I was saying the opposite.

So where is the reasoning/rationalization of saying something was a vision where no where near this event is there a mention of a vision. Unlike in all the visions it clearly states it is a vision. Thats not scripturally rationalizing/reasoning, thats just unscripturally MANS reasoning

If you hear the duck quack, do you need someone else to tell you that's a duck? No, for you know that's a duck. So I hope. Does it have to be written when something
brings all the signs of a vision? No, if you are moved by reason. So, be reasonable!

Ben: <*)))><

 

[AK4]

If you hear the duck quack, do you need someone else to tell you that's a duck? No, for you know that's a duck. So I hope. Does it have to be written when something
brings all the signs of a vision? No, if you are moved by reason. So, be reasonable!

Ben: <*)))><

Yup i hear quacking alright. And its this guys reasoning. Its unscriptural. It falls out of place of every other vision. Proof is in the evidence. God even has something to say about mans reasoning

Ps 94:11 The LORD knows people's thoughts, that they are worthless!
Ps 118:8 - It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
And this is what you are doing, putting confidence in this mans reasoning and not using your own mind to see that that rationale is unscriptural.

 

[Ben Masada]

Yup i hear quacking alright. And its this guys reasoning. Its unscriptural. It falls out of place of every other vision. Proof is in the evidence. God even has something to say about mans reasoning

Ps 94:11 The LORD knows people's thoughts, that they are worthless!
Ps 118:8 - It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
And this is what you are doing, putting confidence in this mans reasoning and not using your own mind to see that that rationale is unscriptural.

Sorry guy, but to speak against Reason in favour of faith, you must be gifted with a
Medieval soul. Wake up! This is Century 21.

Ben: <*)))><

 

[AK4]

Sorry guy, but to speak against Reason in favour of faith, you must be gifted with a
Medieval soul. Wake up! This is Century 21.

Ben: <*)))><

Right. And to reason that someone saying something that doesnt fit any other scripture about visions and say it was a vision is not reasoning. Oh brother.

Now with faith---you are having blind faith in what another MAN has rationalized to make his/your religion work---and thats not reasoning at all for yourself.

"Hey trust me that is a duck over there, yeah i know its mooing but believe me its a duck."

"Ok"

And here is an example of your reasoning

 

[Ben Masada]

Right. And to reason that someone saying something that doesnt fit any other scripture about visions and say it was a vision is not reasoning. Oh brother.

Now with faith---you are having blind faith in what another MAN has rationalized to make his/your religion work---and thats not reasoning at all for yourself.

"Hey trust me that is a duck over there, yeah i know its mooing but believe me its a duck."

"Ok"

And here is an example of your reasoning

Faith is for those who are dying for lack of knowledge.

Ben: <*)))><