From 'born again' to agnostic

[Misty]

To grant the same consideration to others that we so selfishly grant to ourselves.

Why is it selfish to grant consideration to ourselves?

 

[emiliano]

Many agnostics, myself included, moved from theism to agnosticism in attempts to escape flawed assumptions and faulty depictions of God, such as those I personally believe are found in the Bible.

Why do some theists seem to think that Biblical arguments made to people who have come to believe the Bible is false will have any consequential impact?

I certainly have not read every post in this thread, but still it is obvious to me from what I have read that the person you are addressing will not be swayed to your arguments by Biblical references. So, why continue to employ them?

Honestly, do people who quote the Bible to nonbelievers think it has some magical power? Or, are you simply more interested in talking AT nonbelievers rather than engaging them openly, honestly, and with some legitimate attempt to reach a functional understanding of each other?

If seems to me one of the first indicators that a person may need to rethink their argument would be if that argument cannot be made rationally sans scriptural validation. If something is true, then it should be able to endure the rational testing of skeptics without relying on Biblical approval.

Thanks for the clarification, I thought that you haven read many of the posts. I will tell some of the background, I have many debates with anti-Christian in these and other threads, I debate their Bible quotes interpretations in many occasions, I don’t know how back have you read, but I will give some and ask you question . For example there be a claim that the Churches teaches that sinner are hopelessly, that they have been taught this This is false and have debated it then I have been told that this in the Bible and I have been cited scriptures/text proof that the Bible is OK with lesbianism for example.
Have you read the Bible? Have you seen any of these in it?
Have you been taught things like this: I was told at six years old that if Jesus came I would be left behind, which of course is abusive, not doubt this is abusive, but the question is, it true or is it resentment for parental correction?
Generally I participate when a see what the Bible teaches is distorted.

Why continue to employ them?

As I said above I debate their interpretation: On the theme of love, do you think that any the verses of the bible teachings about love includes gay love.

Honestly, do people who quote the Bible to nonbelievers think it has some magical power?

I have said this before I believe that the word has power the problem is that it is directed to God’s elects, only they can receive it, so I do believe that there is power in the word, that all we can do is to release it.
I don’t understand many thinks about atheism, for example: why do they blame a non exiting God from bad thing that happen to them.
When I hear of the thing that Parents and grandparents resort to in order to change their children behaviours, I can help but to ask myself, what was the children behaviours and how obstinately they persisted in them?

 

[Danmac]

Why is it selfish to grant consideration to ourselves?

It is only selfish when we do not grant the same consideration to others.

 

[emiliano]

Now put on your thinking hat, emiliano. She doesn't accept that book as true. Why would a warning from it have any effect?

As I said to her you won’t be there, don’t worry yourself either, that is the problem with Agnosticism, they don’t know. I told you before that I understand people that can’t find justification for their behaviours in Christianity to look elsewhere Christianity is restrictive, unnatural sexual expressions, kinky sex and other practices are look down upon, Christianity is not for her or you.
I wonder why does she think that the Bible threat hers, what does she worry about?

 

[Autodidact]

Religion kills. They should be trained as to how they might honor the golden rule.

So you should not take them to Church or teach them that Jesus Christ is their loving savior?

 

[Autodidact]

As I said to her you won’t be there, don’t worry yourself either, that is the problem with Agnosticism, they don’t know.

Believe me, I'm not worried in the least. I just wanted to point out that your so-called "argument" failed.

I told you before that I understand people that can’t find justification for their behaviours in Christianity to look elsewhere Christianity is restrictive, unnatural sexual expressions, kinky sex and other practices are look down upon, Christianity is not for her or you.

Or maybe they're telling the truth, and find no evidence that such a silly legend is factual.

I wonder why does she think that the Bible threat hers, what does she worry about?

What makes you assume she's worried?

Here's a big hint to all you Christians. Instead of telling people what they think, ask them.

 

[Danmac]

So you should not take them to Church or teach them that Jesus Christ is their loving savior?

What is wrong with these things?

 

[blueman]

I was unfortunate enough to have been brought up in a fundamentalist Christian home (pentecostal). The pressure to get 'saved' was great even from a young age. I was told at six years old that if Jesus came I would be left behind, which of course is abusive. I had a sadistic grandmother who took pleasure in telling me from the age of two about the tortures of hell for naughty little girls like me! I held out until I was eleven before giving into the pressure and 'giving my heart to Jesus'! I was even devout for a while and embarrassingly trotted out the cliches so beloved of fundamentalist Christians. However, before long the doubts assailed themselves overwhelmingly, and thankfully by the time I married at 19 my faith slipped away, which was a relief. I am firmly of the opinion that the fundamentalist Christian dogma 'only the saved go to heaven the rest to hell', is a silly nonsense and can be very abusive too.

I would encourage you to not fully close the door on Christianity. I would agree with you that the approach and pressure you experienced may not have been healthy, but the doctrine presents a central truth for our purpose and destiny. It begins and ends through Jesus Christ. It should never be presented in a fear mongering fashion, but should underscore the fact that God loves you so much, He dwelt among us and took our rightful place on the cross for the remission of our sins. God bless you.

 

[Misty]

It is only selfish when we do not grant the same consideration to others.

I agree

 

[Misty]

I would encourage you to not fully close the door on Christianity. I would agree with you that the approach and pressure you experienced may not have been healthy, but the doctrine presents a central truth for our purpose and destiny. It begins and ends through Jesus Christ. It should never be presented in a fear mongering fashion, but should underscore the fact that God loves you so much, He dwelt among us and took our rightful place on the cross for the remission of our sins. God bless you.

If Christianity does it for you that is fine, it doesn't do it for me which is absolutely fine too.

 

[blueman]

If Christianity does it for you that is fine, it doesn't do it for me which is absolutely fine too.

All I'm saying is to not close the door. Don't base your decision on emotion, but through testing the truth claims of the doctrine through critical research. God wants you to have faith in Him through Christ Jesus, not in man. The latter will let you down at times, God won't. It is a personal relationship, not a set of traditions or rituals that facilitate legalism like you see in most organized religion. God loves you.

 

[waitasec]

All I'm saying is to not close the door. Don't base your decision on emotion, but through testing the truth claims of the doctrine through critical research. God wants you to have faith in Him through Christ Jesus, not in man. The latter will let you down at times, God won't. It is a personal relationship, not a set of traditions or rituals that facilitate legalism like you see in most organized religion. God loves you.

god loves us so much that he created a hell for those who do not have faith in him...

"through testing the truth claims of the doctrine through critical research"
this seems like, instead of living this life you're investing your time living for the after life, so your already dead...as 'they' say, life is for the living

 

[Misty]

All I'm saying is to not close the door. Don't base your decision on emotion, but through testing the truth claims of the doctrine through critical research. God wants you to have faith in Him through Christ Jesus, not in man. The latter will let you down at times, God won't. It is a personal relationship, not a set of traditions or rituals that facilitate legalism like you see in most organized religion. God loves you.

You talk about assumptions NOT provable facts. They are assumptions which don't make any sense to me at all. Besides which I don't know why I would want to be loved by some deity!

 

[emiliano]

Believe me, I'm not worried in the least. I just wanted to point out that your so-called "argument" failed. Or maybe they're telling the truth, and find no evidence that such a silly legend is factual.
What makes you assume she's worried?

Here's a big hint to all you Christians. Instead of telling people what they think, ask them.

I was addressing to the fact that some people claim that they have unjustly been treated by their parents or grands parents, thing like “ The pressure to get 'saved' was great even from a young age” I find this hard to believe. I have attended numerous Pentecostal services and the preaching about baptism of children have been addressed, I never heard it say that babies need to be baptised to cleanse their sins, the church that her parent attended seem to believe that children as young as six can sin. What do you thin, what is the age at which we are conscious of good and bad? The OP goes on to say that at age eleven that at age eleven she gave in to their parents pressure and even became a devout for a while, but by age nineteen she lost all faith and blame the Church and relatives for it, and seem very hurt by the doctrine of Salvation of only those that repent and change, what Christians believe is in the kingdom of heavens, God kingdom the kingdom that God promised to those that love Him, where will the rest be?
I don’t know this, all I know is that they won’t in the kingdom of God, Jesus said: Jhn 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am [He], you will die in your sins."
I believe that if I die in my sins I won’t be part of God’s kingdom Jesus refers specifically to unbelieve. It is His kingdom and He demand repentance.
1Cr 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith [is] futile; you are still in your sins!
He is the saviour of those that believe in God and receive His Christ, it is up to us.
We only know what people tell us, I went on what she tell us about this evil relatives and their evil reasons, offcourse you can believe her not, I believe that this respond to bitterness and resentment.

 

[Misty]

but by age nineteen she lost all faith and blame the Church and relatives for it,

Excuse me where did I say I blamed my relatives and church for loss of faith? My loss of faith is down to me, I came to see for myself that what I was taught as a child was a lot of silly nonsense. I take responsibility for not believing the evil character of the deity in the Bible is an actual entity.

 

[walmul]

Misty used the conviction of what she have learned to decide what to believe or not, is it not that freedom which have brought our world to where it is today? Not being a Christian the following might be strange to the Christians; Jesus or the scriptures statements regarding this man taught us many things, the one thing we however tend not to notice is words supposedly spoken by him. He said; investigate all things and hold on to that which is good, he did not specify, leaving "good" for ourselves to decide. Yes, he apparently stated many other things also, but is it not our choice what to take or what not, the investigate part imply that.

Walmul.

 

[Autodidact]

What is wrong with these things?

Well, you said,

According to your own words, you never "chose" for yourself. You gave into pressure. That violated your free moral agency. For one to become a Christian they "must" choose for themselves without "any" outside pressure. My guess is that you got saved to shut everybody up. Hence you "never" got saved.

Then, when I asked you if that meant, as it seems to, that children should not receive religious indoctrination, you replied that they should be taught the golden rule, which is of course not responsive to the question, since there's nothing religious about the golden rule. So, Danmac, should children receive religious indoctrination, or should they not?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

All I'm saying is to not close the door. Don't base your decision on emotion, but through testing the truth claims of the doctrine through critical research. God wants you to have faith in Him through Christ Jesus, not in man. The latter will let you down at times, God won't. It is a personal relationship, not a set of traditions or rituals that facilitate legalism like you see in most organized religion. God loves you.

When I was a Christian, I discovered that I had been lied to about many things by so-called "men of God," I learned of many inaccuracies and inconsistencies in the Bible, and it seemed that God was never there for me when I needed him the most. And today I am actually much happier and content in life without devoting alot of time to prayer, Bible reading, church attendance, and faith in a God that seemed to fail me more often than being there for me.

 

[Danmac]

but by age nineteen she lost all faith and blame the Church and relatives for it,

Excuse me where did I say I blamed my relatives and church for loss of faith? My loss of faith is down to me, I came to see for myself that what I was taught as a child was a lot of silly nonsense. I take responsibility for not believing the evil character of the deity in the Bible is an actual entity.

According to your own statement, you blamed your relatives for your faith. You said...

The pressure to get 'saved' was great even from a young age. I was told at six years old that if Jesus came I would be left behind, which of course is abusive. I had a sadistic grandmother who took pleasure in telling me from the age of two about the tortures of hell for naughty little girls like me! I held out until I was eleven before giving into the pressure and 'giving my heart to Jesus'!

The decision to "give your heart to Jesus" was from pressure. Was it not your desire to silence your sadistic grandmother? Choices that we make when we feel pressured to make them are always done reluctantly. IMO you didn't choose Jesus, your grandmother chose Him for you. Therefore you were never a "true believer". IMO

 

[jml03]

According to your own statement, you blamed your relatives for your faith. You said...

The pressure to get 'saved' was great even from a young age. I was told at six years old that if Jesus came I would be left behind, which of course is abusive. I had a sadistic grandmother who took pleasure in telling me from the age of two about the tortures of hell for naughty little girls like me! I held out until I was eleven before giving into the pressure and 'giving my heart to Jesus'!

The decision to "give your heart to Jesus" was from pressure. Was it not your desire to silence your sadistic grandmother? Choices that we make when we feel pressured to make them are always done reluctantly. IMO you didn't choose Jesus, your grandmother chose Him for you. Therefore you were never a "true believer". IMO

I have to agree with this statement.