Frustrated athiest asks why do you believe in God?

[Link]

I seriously doubt that. You have publications from disbelievers, not the Quran itself where it only claims that disbelievers acknowledged that these miracles? If you only have the Quran and the Hadith then you do not have proper support.

And don't pass the buck. It appears that you are trying to blame the victim here. Can you support your claims or are weak apologetics all that you have?

I am acknowledging that miracles in the past are not proofs for those in the present and future. Time makes people doubt such things. I commented on why there is always a Guide who can perform such miracles, but this guide is hidden and so to access miracles, you have to ask God's guidance from God and want to be guided by the Guide from God. I said this as a way of explaining Quran acknowledges miracles are meant in real time to be experienced, not as historical reports.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Then it is all created this way by your Creator.

No it was originally perfect. We broke that perfection.

 

[Wildswanderer]

This way of thinking was created because we humans assume we are special. If we are special why are little kids dying from cancer, like other animals? Well it must be that God wants them now. Why? Because whatever. The alternative is that we humans are just like other animals and we suffer like any other, no rhyme or reason. That's pretty scary. It's more fun to assume we are special.

Because we are. No animals worship a divine being. We are self aware. We perceive ourselves as souls not just physical bodies. That goes for the vast majority of humankind... Only a few educate themselves out of that innate knowledge we are born with.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am acknowledging that miracles in the past are not proofs for those in the present and future. Time makes people doubt such things. I commented on why there is always a Guide who can perform such miracles, but this guide is hidden and so to access miracles, you have to ask God's guidance from God and want to be guided by the Guide from God. I said this as a way of explaining Quran acknowledges miracles are meant in real time to be experienced, not as historical reports.

They are not "proofs" for anyone. If one tries to use them as evidence it only demonstrates that one is not reasoning rationally.

And why would the guide be hidden if God wants us to come to him? You are now claiming that your God plays hide and seek and punishes the losers. I do not know of any god that has a version of hell that can claim to be a moral god.

 

[F1fan]

No it was originally perfect. We broke that perfection.

You'd think a perfect God would create a world that wouldn't break.

The God should have designed better humans.

Unless it designed them flawed, and designed break. Thus, the Creator is at fault.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Because we are. No animals worship a divine being. We are self aware. We perceive ourselves as souls not just physical bodies. That goes for the vast majority of humankind... Only a few educate themselves out of that innate knowledge we are born with.

How do you know that no animal worships a "divine being"? You should get a dog as a pet. You might change your mind..

 

[F1fan]

And you have to think about this deeper. If the God really had confidence that the perfect world wouldn't be broken, why was their any consequences designed into it? God must have known there was a chance these people would break it. But perfect Gods don't create flawed things. These humans were either designed to fail, or the God is imperfect.

 

[Wildswanderer]

How do you know that no animal worships a "divine being"? You should get a dog as a pet. You might change your mind..

We have three dogs, none of them worship a divine being. They don't worship us either if that's what you're implying. If they did maybe they would obey better.

 

[Wildswanderer]

And you have to think about this deeper. If the God really had confidence that the perfect world wouldn't be broken, why was their any consequences designed into it? God must have known there was a chance these people would break it. But perfect Gods don't create flawed things. These humans were either designed to fail, or the God is imperfect.

Or God desires our free choice to love him so much that he was willing to deal with the failures that came with it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

We have three dogs, none of them worship a divine being. They don't worship us either if that's what you're implying. If they did maybe they would obey better.

Oh no! Whose a bad boy?

 

[F1fan]

We have three dogs, none of them worship a divine being. They don't worship us either if that's what you're implying. If they did maybe they would obey better.

Well humans didn't obey either.

 

[F1fan]

Or God desires our free choice to love him so much that he was willing to deal with the failures that came with it.

That only works if ALL humans were created with wisdom and stability. Humans aren't. What free choice does a person born with a mental defect have? They aren't even capable of it. Explain.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Oh no! Whose a bad boy?

The little one sneaks off to poop in the room we don't use much.

 

[Link]

They are not "proofs" for anyone. If one tries to use them as evidence it only demonstrates that one is not reasoning rationally.

And why would the guide be hidden if God wants us to come to him? You are now claiming that your God plays hide and seek and punishes the losers. I do not know of any god that has a version of hell that can claim to be a moral god.

I was only bringing it up to show that I agree with you on the point that live miracles are proofs, while past ones are not.

The Guide being hidden is due to the denial of miracles and signs from those performing them resulting oppression to their followers. So as to not destroy the people and give them respite, he hid the Guide so to give a break from public miracles that results in prosecution of believers by their disbelievers.

If people accepted the miracles and accepted the Twelve Successors of Mohammad (s) and supported them, the Guide would not be hidden right now.

 

[Wildswanderer]

That only works if ALL humans were created with wisdom and stability. Humans aren't. What free choice does a person born with a mental defect have? They aren't even capable of it. Explain.

They get a free pass. That's not to say they don't have any choice at all... That would depend on the extent of the mental illness.
Most Christians agree that severe mental handicapped will go to heaven like little children who are incapable of understanding thier need for salvation.

 

[F1fan]

They get a free pass.

A free pass? This is your best guess?

Why were they created at all?

That's not to say they don't have any choice at all... That would depend on the extent of the mental illness.

Really? You're going to split hairs as if any mental illness is OK? Why was it necessary to design mental illness and defects into humans at all? If God wants people to be responsible and accountable it is putting unnecessary roadblocks into live? It's not just the mentally ill, it's their families too that are affected. law enforcement, and victims of crime. Societies have to deal with the mentally ill, and as the USA has cut funding for facilities the result is more and more mentally ill ending up committing crimes and ending up in prison. Explain your God's decision to create the mentally ill.

Most Christians agree that severe mental handicapped will go to heaven like little children who are incapable of understanding thier need for salvation.

Of course, Christians have to excuse their God's design and decision to create the mentally ill. Catholics invented limbo for dead children, but after protests they got rid of it.

Just explain why your God decided to create the mentally ill, and make sure it makes sense. Use facts.

 

[Wildswanderer]

The little one sneaks off to poop in the room we don't use much.

Come to think of it, this is the perfect illustration of what God does for us.
I love the pup so much that I'm willing to put up with her crap.
Like God does with me.
Man if I was a preacher I'd work that into a sermon somewhere!

 

[F1fan]

Come to think of it, this is the perfect illustration of what God does for us.
I love the pup so much that I'm willing to put up with her crap.
Like God does with me.
Man if I was a preacher I'd work that into a sermon somewhere!

So:

Grown adult = little puppy.

Of course I'll bet you won't condemn your puppy to hell for pooping, and that's because you are better than your God.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Really? You're going to split hairs as if any mental illness is OK? Why was it necessary to design mental illness and defects into humans at all? If God wants people to be responsible and accountable it is putting unnecessary roadblocks into live? It's not just the mentally ill, it's their families too that are affected. law enforcement, and victims of crime. Societies have to deal with the mentally ill, and as the USA has cut funding for facilities the result is more and more mentally ill ending up committing crimes and ending up in prison. Explain your God's decision to create the mentally ill.

I already covered this.
I never suggested that illnesses are God’s way of punishing humans but they are simply another reality of our living in a fallen world.
I think Job was somewhat wrong though, when he said that he would accept good or trouble from God.
"Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?”
In Job, it was actually Satan causing the trouble, but God allowed it to happen.
Satan will be locked away forever, but that time isn't here yet, so we continue to live in a broken world.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Grown adult = little puppy.

No, in comparison, we are probably a lot less intelligent than a puppy.