• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Gaudiya Vaishnavism queries and discussion thread.

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't understand your question Tereseji. Do you mean which scriptures we see as "authentic?"
No literal. Like it actually happened. Like Krishna giving Arjuna the discourse of the Bhagavad Gita. Although i'd like to know what Gaudiyas find authentic also.
 

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
No literal. Like it actually happened. Like Krishna giving Arjuna the discourse of the Bhagavad Gita. Although i'd like to know what Gaudiyas find authentic also.

All of them. Sruti (Vedas and Upanisads), Smrti (Puranas and Ithihasa including Gita) and Vani (the works of our acharyas) are all generally taken literally (the allegorical meaning is only taken if our acharyas say so). However there are categories within these scriptures too (Srimad Bhagavatam holds excellence over the works of Vyasadev). You should read Tattva Sandarbha by Jiva Goswami because it goes quite well through Gaudiya epistemology.
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
All of them. Sruti (Vedas and Upanisads), Smrti (Puranas and Ithihasa including Gita) and Vani (the works of our acharyas) are all generally taken literally (the allegorical meaning is only taken if our acharyas say so). However there are categories within these scriptures too (Srimad Bhagavatam holds excellence over the works of Vyasadev). You should read Tattva Sandarbha by Jiva Goswami because it goes quite well through Gaudiya epistemology.
All are literal? What of Rama encountering a rakshasa? What of the event when Sri Krishna were told my Agni to burn down the forest, infuriating Indra?
 

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
All are literal? What of Rama encountering a rakshasa? What of the event when Sri Krishna were told my Agni to burn down the forest, infuriating Indra?

All of them. Every one of the stories in Shastra we believe happened in this universe or another. Some schools like to see the puranas are allegorical stories, but it is the view of the Vaishnav schools (specifically Gaudiyas and Madhavas, not sure about Sri Vaishnavs, maybe ask Kalyanji?) that every word of shastra is literal (unless acharyas say otherwise). I mean, all the Lila Sthalis where Sri Krsna performed His pastimes are all still there (Govardhan, Vamsi Vhat etc).
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
All of them. Every one of the stories in Shastra we believe happened in this universe or another. Some schools like to see the puranas are allegorical stories, but it is the view of the Vaishnav schools (specifically Gaudiyas and Madhavas, not sure about Sri Vaishnavs, maybe ask Kalyanji?) that every word of shastra is literal (unless acharyas say otherwise). I mean, all the Lila Sthalis where Sri Krsna performed His pastimes are all still there (Govardhan, Vamsi Vhat etc).
Very interesting! Never thought of that. Other universes ay... So you say if an acharya says (insert scripture here) is allegorical, even though you believe all scriptures are literal, how can you accept his words? And what is a Lila Sthalis? Where is Vamsi Vhat?
 

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
So you say if an acharya says (insert scripture here) is allegorical, even though you believe all scriptures are literal, how can you accept his words? And what is a Lila Sthalis? Where is Vamsi Vhat?

That is where Guru comes in. Taking shelter of a self-realized soul means accepting his/her guidance. Literal and Allegorical are interpretations and our interpretation is based upon our Guru Parampara (which begins from Sri Krsna Himself). That is the faith we have in our acharyas and Guru. There is a saying. That by the mercy of Krsna you get a Guru and by the mercy of a Guru you then get Krsna. That is the process of bhakti as described in scripture: sraddha (Faith), sadhu sanga (association with pure Vaishnavs and acceptance of Guru), bhajan kriya (performance of Sadhana, like Nama Sankirtan), anartha nivritthi (removal of human defect and purification of soul due to Sadhana), nishta (Steadfastness in Bhakti), ruci (taste in the Holy Name), ashakti (detachment to the material world and attachment to Lord Hari), bhava (manifestation of spiritual ecstasy) and finally Prema (Love for Krsna which is the goal of life). The Holy Name is also like a flower which slowly blossoms and reveals the Form, then Qualities and finally the Pastimes of the Lord. This is a very confidential topic and that's why I don't want to speak further here. That is why Guru is so important, because Guru gives the actual meaning of scripture. To try and read scripture through ones own defective understanding will only lead to error (you won't know what interpretation is right).

Lila Sthalis were all the places where Lord Krsna performed His pastimes, and they all are still there. Kurukshetra (where Gita was spoken) still exists. Ayodhya the city of Lord Rama is still there. Dwaraka the city of Sri Krsna was recently discovered underwater. Govardhan hill still exists. Vamvi Vhat was the place where Sri Krsna would play His flute everyday and call the Gopis to dance. It is here below:

4254107162_47345130f7.jpg


This is Radha Kund (my Gurudev's place), which was dug by the hands of Radharani Herself (and later excavated by the Goswamis under the order of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu):

313450_10150375962024026_1023933294_n.jpg
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
All are literal? What of Rama encountering a rakshasa? What of the event when Sri Krishna were told my Agni to burn down the forest, infuriating Indra?

Gaudiyas do take all the stories to be literal. That doesn't mean you have to, but yes it is considered to be all literally true. Some stories are seen as both literal and deeply meaningful.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Geography creates a little problem as you will see from the Google Earth image below. The circuit is 53 miles. So, Srimati Radharani could not have visited Lord Krishna in Vrindavana on foot every day from Barsana (her village) for her daliance, nor Lord Krishna could have gone to Vrindavana from Nandagaon (his village) to graze his cows every day, the distance is quite large (though I understand nothing is difficult for the Lord). However, they could have met daily in the vicinity of Barsana and Nandagaon (just about 4 miles) or places like Prem Sarovara in Ghazipur quite easily, which is midway between the two villages..

Since 1986, the Vraja Mandala Parikrama held during October–November is in vogue. It follows the same route taken by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu during his visit toVrindavan. Devotees achieve full experience of twelve forests of Vraja, over a period of one month and visit holy tirthas (pilgrimage centres) of Vraja (also spelt/spoken as Braja/Biraja in local parlance). Vraja Mandala comprises twelve forests, known as vans, and twenty-four groves, known as upavans. The twelve forests are Madhuvan, Talavan, Kumudvan, Bahulavan, Kamavan, Khadiravan, Vrindavan, Bhadravan, Bhandiravan, Belvan, Lohavan, and Mahavan. The twenty-four groves are Gokul, Govardhan, Barsana, Nandagram, Sanket, Paramadra, Aring, Sessai, Mat, Uchagram, Kelvan, Sri Kund, Gandharvavan, Parsoli, Bilchhu, Bacchavan, Adibadri, Karahla, Ajnokh, Pisaya, Kokilavan, Dadhigram, Kotvan, and Raval all of which are stated to share in Lord Krishna’s absolute nature.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parikrama#Vraja_Mandala_parikrama

Krishna land
Krshna land.jpg
 
Last edited:

ratikala

Istha gosthi
Namaskaram prabhu ji's

No literal. Like it actually happened. Like Krishna giving Arjuna the discourse of the Bhagavad Gita. Although i'd like to know what Gaudiyas find authentic also.

Sorry l have missed a lot here , ..but to join back in at this point , ....
jn3.png


allegorical or litteral ? .....Both , ....firstly yes , I firmly belive that Krsna and Arjuna stood on the Battle feild at Kurukshetra , and that the Vrindarban pastimes actualy took place , ..but there is a level of allegory too if one thinks of allegory as having 'hidden spiritual meaning' ...every action of Sri Krsnas has hidden spiritual meaning , ....the actions of Krsna can take place here on this earth at a specific time and through a specific incarnation , or they can take place in the Heart , ....so this Krisna Can be in a way that is open and litleral , or can take place in a very mystical and hidden manner , ....this can be hard to understand but if one associates with True Bhaktas one will begin to understand that mysterious things happen which although difficult to atribute but are none the less real , ....after all what is this that we call real but Krsnas Maya , ....

as to what is authentic ? .....that which has been handed down through Deciplic sucession or which is authorised by a realised Soul , ....(that dosent mean any Sanyasi in deciplic sucession) but those that remain loyal to the tradition and who disseminate Sastra not through personal inturpertation , but through realisation , ...

There is a saying. That by the mercy of Krsna you get a Guru and by the mercy of a Guru you then get Krsna.

Jai Jai
jn3.png
 

kalyan

Aspiring Sri VaishNava
Geography creates a little problem as you will see from the Google Earth image below. The circuit is 53 miles. So, Srimati Radharani could not have visited Lord Krishna in Vrindavana on foot every day from Barsana (her village) for her daliance, nor Lord Krishna could have gone to Vrindavana from Nandagaon (his village) to graze his cows every day, the distance is quite large (though I understand nothing is difficult for the Lord). However, they could have met daily in the vicinity of Barsana and Nandagaon (just about 4 miles) or places like Prem Kund, etc. quite easily.

Krishna land
View attachment 12382
ur point ? :)
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
My point as always has been that Krishna and his party went to Vrindavana - not daily, but at particular times for a longer period and stayed there for a few weeks like the shepherds to in all regions, an yearly short migration event. Women generally do not accompany men on these journeys.
 

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
Geography creates a little problem as you will see from the Google Earth image below. The circuit is 53 miles. So, Srimati Radharani could not have visited Lord Krishna in Vrindavana on foot every day from Barsana (her village) for her daliance, nor Lord Krishna could have gone to Vrindavana from Nandagaon (his village) to graze his cows every day, the distance is quite large (though I understand nothing is difficult for the Lord). However, they could have met daily in the vicinity of Barsana and Nandagaon (just about 4 miles) or places like Prem Sarovara in Ghazipur quite easily, which is midway between the two villages..

Since 1986, the Vraja Mandala Parikrama held during October–November is in vogue. It follows the same route taken by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu during his visit toVrindavan. Devotees achieve full experience of twelve forests of Vraja, over a period of one month and visit holy tirthas (pilgrimage centres) of Vraja (also spelt/spoken as Braja/Biraja in local parlance). Vraja Mandala comprises twelve forests, known as vans, and twenty-four groves, known as upavans. The twelve forests are Madhuvan, Talavan, Kumudvan, Bahulavan, Kamavan, Khadiravan, Vrindavan, Bhadravan, Bhandiravan, Belvan, Lohavan, and Mahavan. The twenty-four groves are Gokul, Govardhan, Barsana, Nandagram, Sanket, Paramadra, Aring, Sessai, Mat, Uchagram, Kelvan, Sri Kund, Gandharvavan, Parsoli, Bilchhu, Bacchavan, Adibadri, Karahla, Ajnokh, Pisaya, Kokilavan, Dadhigram, Kotvan, and Raval all of which are stated to share in Lord Krishna’s absolute nature.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parikrama#Vraja_Mandala_parikrama

Krishna land
View attachment 12382

Even today some devotees everyday do Govardhan Parikrama (21 km). There are some who even do Dandavat Parikrama (where they only move by offering Dandavat and then getting up where the dandavat ends and so on, which makes the parikrama take months). We Gaudiyas do not climb Sri Govardhan itself following in the footsteps of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu (who said that Govardhan Maharaj is non-different from Sri Krsna and therefore did not want to step on it). Govardhan means Go-(senses) Vardhana-(increases), which means that Govardhan increases the ecstasy of Sri Krsna and His associates. It is on Govardhan that Sri Krsna alongside Balaram and His Sakhas perform many pastimes and it is also in Govardhana that the ultimate pastimes of Radhakund occur at noon. Syama Kund and Radha Kund are the eyes of Govardhan.

 

kalyan

Aspiring Sri VaishNava
I think in this context as the question of authenticity arrived, it is proper to understand that .

1. Vedam is supreme authority. If some guru teaches meaning against the actual teachings of it, then that acharya is apramana(or should be taken lightly)
2. The ones supporting vedam like Ramayana, MahaBharatha which have happened actually are in line with Vedam and treated as supreme authority.
3. Agamas
4. Puranas (only 6 sattwika)
5. BhagawadGita
6. Divya Prabandham(Alwars and acharyas)

We have to remember at this point, the God did not create Vedam,(remember here that Vedam describes nArAyaNa as the supreme cause of universe and he only is the essence of vedam and hence those who chant vedam start it with Harihi Ommmm). God/Sri Krushna used/accepted the vedam and based on that he does all the stuff he does.
Vedam are the sounds that are heard by the rishis in the deepest levels of their meditation, for example who created the 'Samudra Ghosha' or the Sound of the Sea or for the sound when the air comes, nobody right ? Why doesn't the sounds of animals change overtime ? These are constant what I say. These do not change overtime.

The same way no one created Veda shabda raasi or the sounds that are Veda, they existed from time immemorial, no language can describe veda as it is, because language is something according to our understanding and experience we established, it cannot describe the out of the world thing.
Vedam describes that cannot be inferred by Pratyaksha(Knowledge obtained from 6 senses) or by anumana(by inference, seeing smoke inferring fire, or seeing a bird fly in the sky and inferring there has to be a conscious entity driving the bird inside), these 2 pramanas also describe the things that are not known to us, as we see various events in our life and we infer so many things in day to day life, but Vedam describes is something that cannot be known from these 2 and vedam is in line with other 2 and corrects pratyaksha and anumana and describes the unexplainable and also details about the means to achieve our highest state and the fruits that are obtained when we reach that........The sanskrit root of the term vedam (Vid--that which explains what cannot be explained by Pratyaksha and anumaana and as per above). What is the goal of life and what is the most important part in the Veda, it is called Vedantha.

pratyakshena-anumityä vä yastüpäyo na budhyate |

enam vidanti vedena tasmäd vedasya vedatä ||

‘that which contains the esoteric ways to achieve the desired objects, and to avoid the undesired, is called the Veda(Sounds).’ Thus, Veda is a source of knowledge of esoteric measure, which cannot be known through any other pramäna i.e. pratyakshya or anumäna.


 
Last edited:

ratikala

Istha gosthi
namaskaram Aupmanyav ji , ...

My point as always has been that Krishna and his party went to Vrindavana - not daily, but at particular times for a longer period and stayed there for a few weeks like the shepherds to in all regions, an yearly short migration event. Women generally do not accompany men on these journeys.

Sri Radhika and the Gopis wre no ordinary Women , and Krsna no ordinary man , ..., ...If Krsna goes Sri Radhika and the Gopis will follow even when they should'nt , ...otherwise the sepperation would become too , too unbearable for them , ....

but yes it is possible that they would occasionaly travel to better pastures if needs be , ...I can immagine this happening in Krsnas younger days , ..but on the other hand the Milking Cows are kept near to the villages as everyone relied upon and enjoyed their milk , ...
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
@kalyan about what Nitai-dasa said, that they find all things in the scriptures true; what of us Sri Vaishnavas?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Geology hints at resolving the geographical problems. It is possible that Rivers Sutlej and Yamuna were once part of the waters feeding River Saraswati, but a tectonic upheaval around 1,900 BC caused the Aravali Delhi ridge to rise making Sutlej flow west-ward to merge with Sindhu and Yamuna east-ward to merge with Ganga. This caused the drying of River Sarasvati and abandonment of numerous Indus Valley civilizations sites on its course. Probably, in earlier times, Yamuna flowed closer to Nanagaon and Barsana. Even RigVeda talks of two subidiaries of River Saraswati - Apaya and Dhrishadvati.

द्रिषद्वत्यां मानुष आपयायां सरस्वत्यां रेवदग्नेदिदीहि ll
Drishadvatyām mānusha Āpayāyām Sarasvatyām revadagnedidīhi ll
On man, on Āpayā, Agni! on the rivers Drishadvati, Sarasvatī, shine richly.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv03023.htm, Verse 4.2

10187724235_854bb95bc8_o.png
map-saraswati-river.jpg

River%20Saraswati1.JPG

.. but yes it is possible that they would occasionally travel to better pastures if needs be, .. I can imagine this happening in Krsnas younger days, .. but on the other hand the Milking Cows are kept near to the villages as everyone relied upon and enjoyed their milk, ..
Not sure but perhaps cows are sent to fatten to the pastures and sent back before birth of the calf. That is what used to happen in my childhood with our cows - since we lived in city.
 
Last edited:

निताइ dasa

Nitai's servant's servant
Today is Shiva Ratri, so for the pleasure of Shivji, I would like to post the Shivastakam, which were the prayers to him written by Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu Himself (found in Chaitanya Charitra Maha-kavya). They very beautiful and clearly show the Gaudiya mood towards Lord Shiva (because they were composed by our Lord, Sri Gaurasundara Himself). I hope that Shivaji accepts this offering from this menial servant and gives me (and you all) permission to come to the Dhama (in this life preferably ahaha).

namo namas te tri-dasesvaraya, bhutadi-nathaya mridaya nityam
ganga-tarangotthita-bala-candra-cudaya gauri-nayanotsavaya


"I perpetually offer obeisances unto you, the lord of the thirty primal devas, who are the original father of created beings, whose character is gracious, upon whose head, which is crested by the sickle moon, the Ganga springs, and who are a festival for the eyes of Gauri, the fair goddess."

su-tapta-camikara-candra-nila-padma-pravalambuda-kanti-vastraih
suntya-rangeta-vara-pradaya, kaivalya-nathaya va-dhvajaya


"I offer my obeisances to you who resemble a moon of molten gold, who are dressed in garments colored like a group of budding blue lotuses or lustrous rainclouds, who bestow the most desirable boon to your devotees by your delightful dancing, who offer shelter to those who seek to become one with the transcendental effulgence of Godhead, and whose flag bears the image of the bull.

sudhasu-suryagni-vilocanena, tamo-bhide te jagatah sivaya
sahasra-subhrasu-sahasra-rasmi-sahasra-sanjittvara-tejase 'stu


"I offer my obeisances to you who dispel darkness with your three eyes - the moon, the sun, and fire - and thus cause auspiciousness for all the living entities of the universe, and whose potency easily defeats thousands of moons and suns.

nagesa-ratnojjvala-vigrahaya, sarddula-carmasuka-divya-tejase
sahasra-patropari sasthitaya, varangadamukta-bhuja-dvayaya


"I offer my obeisances to you, whose form is brilliantly illuminated by the jewels of Ananta-deva, the king of snakes, who possess divine potencies and are clothed in a tiger-skin, who stands in the midst of a thousand-petalled lotus, and whose two arms are adorned by lustrous bangles.

su-nupuraranjita-pada-padma-karat-sudha-bhtya-sukha-pradaya
vicitra-ratnaugha-vibhuitaya, premanam evadya harau vidhehi


"I offer my obeisances to you who bestow happiness to your servitors as you pour upon them the liquid nectar flowing from your reddish lotus feet, upon which charming anklebells ring. Obeisances unto you who are adorned by an abundance of gems. Please endow Me today with pure love for Shri Hari.

shri-rama govinda mukunda saure, shri-kna narayana vasudeva
ity adi-namamta-pana-matta-bhngadhipayakhila-duhkha-hantre


"`O Shri Rama! O Govinda! O Mukunda! O Sauri! O Shri Krishna! O Narayana! O Vasudeva!' You chant these names O Siva, for you are the monarch ruling over all the bee-like devotees who are mad to drink the nectar of these and other innumerable names of Hari, and who thus destroys all grief.

shri-naradadyaih satata sugopya-jijnasitayasu vara-pradaya
tebhyo harer bhakti-sukha-pradaya, sivaya sarvva-gurave namah


"I offer my respectful obeisances to you, Shri Siva, who are forever inquired of confidentially by Shri Narada and other great sages, who very easily bestow boons on them, who bestow the happiness of Hari-bhakti to those who seek boons of you, who thereby create auspiciousness and are thus the guru of everyone.

shri-gauri-netrotsava-mangalaya, tat-prana-nathaya rasa-pradaya
sada samutkantha-govinda-lila-gana-pravinaya namo 'stu tubhyam


"I offer my obeisances to you who are a festival of auspiciousness for the eyes of Gauri, who are the lord of her life-energy, who bestow rasa and are expert in forever singing songs with eagerness of the pastimes of Govinda."

Parat Parataram yanti Narayana parayanah
nate tatra gamisyanti ye dvisanti mahesvaram
(Kurma Purana)

One who avoids fasting on Siva Ratri or the "night of Lord Siva", he becomes very offensive. Whatever offenses one accumulates by not fasting on Siva Ratri day is explained here. The destination of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Narayana, is certainly in the spiritual world. But if one is envious of Lord Shri Siva, he does not attain the spiritual world.

Sri Krsne vaishnavanantu prema bhakti vivardhate
Krsna bhakti rasa sara varsi Rudra anumkampya (Skanda Purana)


Being a Vaishnava, if somebody fasts on Lord Siva's night (Siva Ratri day), by the mercy of him (Lord Siva) who is diving in the ocean of the mellow of
devotion to Krishna, one's devotion to Krishna increases rapidly.

Lord-Shiva.jpg
 
Top