Gender reassignment/affirming surgery

[mikkel_the_dane]

So this is your definition?

No, it is my observation. If you say you are a man that happens in your brain. If you say your sex is male, then that is not dependent on your brain.

 

[icehorse]

No, it is my observation. If you say you are a man that happens in your brain. If you say your sex is male, then that is not dependent on your brain.

A lot of people throw around these terms "gender" and "gender identity". And clearly they've become important. But as I've demonstrated in another recent thread, no one seems to be able to provide a solid definition for these terms - and the legal definitions I've seen (and I've seen many), are usually some variation on circular logic and word salad.

So I'm not playing "gotcha" with you here. I think these words are without any useful meaning.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

A lot of people throw around these terms "gender" and "gender identity". And clearly they've become important. But as I've demonstrated in another recent thread, no one seems to be able to provide a solid definition for these terms - and the legal definitions I've seen (and I've seen many), are usually some variation on circular logic and word salad.

So I'm not playing "gotcha" with you here. I think these words are without any useful meaning.

Yeah, all of culture and the world is what you think.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

A lot of people throw around these terms "gender" and "gender identity". And clearly they've become important. But as I've demonstrated in another recent thread, no one seems to be able to provide a solid definition for these terms - and the legal definitions I've seen (and I've seen many), are usually some variation on circular logic and word salad.

So I'm not playing "gotcha" with you here. I think these words are without any useful meaning.

Take #2.

You have to learn to account for the broad version of neurodiversity.

 

[icehorse]

Yeah, all of culture and the world is what you think.

Please define the terms "gender" and "gender identity".

They are used all over the place, they are used in the law. This is not about what I think.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Please define the terms "gender" and "gender identity".

They are used all over the place, they are used in the law. This is not about what I think.

No, I won't. Because we have to agree on how words work, before I will play the defintion game with you.

 

[icehorse]

No, I won't. Because we have to agree on how words work, before I will play the defintion game with you.

This is not a game, we are discussing very consequential matters here. You used the word "gender". What I've encountered is that most people who use this word do not have a clear meaning in mind. This is not your fault. This ill-defined word has been crammed into society by activists.

So again, when you used the word "gender", what did you mean?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

This is not a game, we are discussing very consequential matters here. You used the word "gender". What I've encountered is that most people who use this word do not have a clear meaning in mind. This is not your fault. This ill-defined word has been crammed into society by activists.

So again, when you used the word "gender", what did you mean?

A word is a sign with a meaning and a referent. If we are to do that for gender, we have to do both meaning and referent. Agree?

 

[icehorse]

A word is a sign with a meaning and a referent. If we are to do that for gender, we have to do both meaning and referent. Agree?

I'm not sure why we're going down this linguistic rabbit hole? That said, sure, I'll go along with your question - for the sake of discussion...

 

[Subduction Zone]

@Subduction Zone , @The Hammer -

Categories matter. Without using categories, the modern life you enjoy would not be possible. And even though most category schemes allow for rare exceptions, they are still essential.

Biological sex matters. The fact that rare anomalies happen does not render biological sex wrong. For the vast majority of people, their biological sex, which is almost always established long before birth, impacts a vast array of developmental mechanisms as they grow and mature.

So unless an individual has a rare condition, they are either a man or a woman. It IS that simple. A trans man is NOT a man. A trans woman is NOT a woman.

You've been told. Biologists and doctors know this. If you think otherwise you've - one way or another - bought in to some weird post-modern, tear-it-all-down, destructive worldview. Society is NOT infinitely ****-with-able, so just stop.

Sex matters! It matters in healthcare - a lot. It matters when it comes to safeguarding women and girls. It matters in sports. It can matter in affirmative action.

Saying that a trans woman is a trans woman does not deny that person's existence. Pretending that a trans woman is a woman is misogynistic and needlessly zero-sum. Demanding that society accepts the lie that a trans woman is a woman does not help trans people, it vilifies them. It does not promote acceptance and good will to force people to lie.

Sex and gender are not the same thing. You have debated this enough to be aware of the science that supports transgenderism. How do you deal with the science?

 

[icehorse]

Sex and gender are not the same thing. You have debated this enough to be aware of the science that supports transgenderism. How do you deal with the science?

I agree with your first sentence, but probably not for the same reason.

So I'll ask you the same question: Can you define "gender" and "gender identity"? This is not some "gotcha" question, I think these ideas are quite slippery in practice.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I agree with your first sentence, but probably not for the same reason.

So I'll ask you the same question: Can you define "gender" and "gender identity"? This is not some "gotcha" question, I think these ideas are quite slippery in practice.

Any definition that you will find will refer to the fact that for the vast majority of people one's sex matches one's gender. So it will have to refer to traditional meanings:

"the male sex or the female sex, especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones, or one of a range of other identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female."

That is from the Oxford dictionary. I know, it is complex, but then life is complex at times.

You dodged my question. That seems to indicate that you know that the science tells you that you are wrong and have no answer to it.

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

I’m not seeing the problem here.

Sure, it’s against your religion, but so what?

Maybe you should question your religion.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I'm not sure why we're going down this linguistic rabbit hole? That said, sure, I'll go along with your question - for the sake of discussion...

Okay, first a defintion of the word cat: A small domesticated carnivorous mammal with soft fur, a short snout, and retractable claws. It is widely kept as a pet or for catching mice, and many breeds have been developed.
Now the defintion stands for/refer to a cat in the world.

So the word cat has a defintion and a referent. Do we agree on that as a part of how words work?

 

[icehorse]

You have debated this enough to be aware of the science that supports transgenderism. How do you deal with the science?

I wasn't trying to dodge your question. I'll answer yours if you answer mine.

So, in response: What do you mean when you say "transgenderism"? Again, not a "gotcha" question. I think "transgender" has come to mean many different things. So without making any value judgments, I think transgender can mean:

- a person with "gender dysphoria" who feels emotionally better when they act like and present to the world that they are of the opposite sex
- a person with a fetish who is aroused when acting as a member of the opposite sex
- a cross dresser or drag queen

And there are many other variations.

And so we can't talk about "transgender science" until we've determined which forms of transgenderism you're talking about. To be clear, I'm willing to discuss all or some of them, I'm not trying to dodge your questions, I'm just looking for some clarification from you.

==

So in good faith, I'm going to copy and paste what I think your definition of gender is:

gender: "the male sex or the female sex, especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones, or one of a range of other identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female."

Given how important this topic is, I find that definition to be lacking. And I promise, I'm not trying to make it simpler than it is. The definition you've provided starts off by talking about sex, then talks about culture, then biology, then identities, and then back to culture.

Personally, I think we should abandon the word "gender" and stick with "personality". For example, there are effeminate boys. And just because a boy is effeminate, we cannot determine his sexual orientation, correct? Similarly, we have girls who demonstrate a lot of masculine behaviors. We often call these girls "tomboys". And again, being a tomboy does NOT help us determine a person's sexual orientation.

==

We might disagree about the usefulness of your definition for gender. But let's move to the more important term, "gender identity". This is an absolutely crucial, potentially life changing term. It impacts dangerous medical decisions, it impacts women's safety, and it's written into many laws. We ought to be able to define it, and I've looked. But what I've found is mostly circular, word salad.

 

[icehorse]

Okay, first a defintion of the word cat: A small domesticated carnivorous mammal with soft fur, a short snout, and retractable claws. It is widely kept as a pet or for catching mice, and many breeds have been developed.
Now the defintion stands for/refer to a cat in the world.

So the word cat has a defintion and a referent. Do we agree on that as a part of how words work?

for the sake of discussion, sure...

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

for the sake of discussion, sure...

So here are 2 defintions of objective:
-expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations.
-of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers.

Now a question: Is it always the case for all words for their individual referents, that all the referents are objective?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I wasn't trying to dodge your question. I'll answer yours if you answer mine.

So, in response: What do you mean when you say "transgenderism"? Again, not a "gotcha" question. I think "transgender" has come to mean many different things. So without making any value judgments, I think transgender can mean:

- a person with "gender dysphoria" who feels emotionally better when they act like and present to the world that they are of the opposite sex

A bit biased, but not bad. I could go with that.

- a person with a fetish who is aroused when acting as a member of the opposite sex

Definitely not. It is not a fetish. I have known trans people and they do not get off on it sexually.

- a cross dresser or drag queen

They may be, but most seem to be straight men. If you ever saw a "traditional" Shakespeare play that is what you would see again and again. In his time acting was a job done by men and sometimes boys.

And there are many other variations.

And so we can't talk about "transgender science" until we've determined which forms of transgenderism you're talking about. To be clear, I'm willing to discuss all or some of them, I'm not trying to dodge your questions, I'm just looking for some clarification from you.

No, it is definitely people that feel and think that they are the opposite sex. And they could be right. There are all sorts of medical conditions that can cause transgenderism. One may even be human chimerism, which is more common than most people realize. One could actually have female body parts and a male brain and vice versa.

==

So in good faith, I'm going to copy and paste what I think your definition of gender is:

gender: "the male sex or the female sex, especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones, or one of a range of other identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female."

Given how important this topic is, I find that definition to be lacking. And I promise, I'm not trying to make it simpler than it is. The definition you've provided starts off by talking about sex, then talks about culture, then biology, then identities, and then back to culture.

Dictionary definitions always are lacking. And this is a complex subject. I will defer to our members that are trans to fill in the details. I will not answer for them since I have to admit that I cannot understand the condition as well as they can.

Personally, I think we should abandon the word "gender" and stick with "personality". For example, there are effeminate boys. And just because a boy is effeminate, we cannot determine his sexual orientation, correct? Similarly, we have girls who demonstrate a lot of masculine behaviors. We often call these girls "tomboys". And again, being a tomboy does NOT help us determine a person's sexual orientation.

==

Well, unfortunately for you the decision has been made by others. We cannot have our own definitions for words. Definitions will change over time, but if we did it on an individual basis communication would be close to impossible for any serious issues.

We might disagree about the usefulness of your definition for gender. But let's move to the more important term, "gender identity". This is an absolutely crucial, potentially life changing term. It impacts dangerous medical decisions, it impacts women's safety, and it's written into many laws. We ought to be able to define it, and I've looked. But what I've found is mostly circular, word salad.

It is not "mine". It is merely the one that I copied and pasted. I could have found a clinical paper that went into more details.

Now how does this "impact women's safety"? I have as yet to see it be a problem for such.

And now, can you answer the question that I asked you twice, actually three times now. I never dodged your questions and you dodged mine twice so far.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

@Subduction Zone
On a personal note, I think I get being transgender. I am neurodiverse and I can sometimes catch when normal people can't understand that.

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

Why would someone need to alter their body if gender is a socially constructed? Claiming they alter their bodies to "... confirm with their personal idea of how they wish their identity (gender or otherwise) be expressed, just as with all forms of cosmetic surgery." seems to suggest their are physical indicators of gender. If not why would they have to alter them? If gender is simple how one identifies why alter anything?

The Soul is socially constructed. (Afrocolombianos have a cultural notion that one can enslave the body, but not the soul, for example.)

What if your body doesn’t match your Soul?