Gender reassignment/affirming surgery

[Ignatius A]

I've explained it repeatedly. The evidence of your claim is "I've seen videos". My evidence is "I know a lot of trans people, and they aren't like that". It's pretty obvious who here has the better grasp of reality, especially considering this started out as you asking a series of (I thought, at the time, sincere) questions about gender, sex and trans people, then me (again, perfectly sincerely and without any provocation, condescension or lack of civility) answering your questions. And yet, all it took was me answering your questions long enough for you to start referring to trans people as freaks, demonstrating that all it really takes for you to suddenly become angry and hateful is people answering the questions you ask. It seems to me that you are the one getting agitated over nothing. It's pretty clear that you seem to be the one easily upset and prone to explosive anger here.


So you are literally claiming you wouldn't be rightfully upset about someone being deliberately rude to you?


This is just jibberish. You understand perfectly well that there is moral weight in how we treat each other. You would never use this kind of pseudo-intellectual post-hoc justification to dismiss someone keying your car, or spitting in your face, or doing anything else deliberately disrepsectful to you. You understand that actions have consequences.

I didnt say I wouldn't be upset, please pay attention to what I write. I said it doesn't matter whether I am upset or not because I have a life to live. I am not going to waste my time complaining about something I don't control. Is that clear to you?

 

[Ignatius A]

Altering is for show. It is the same reason the actor wears a costume, when on stage. The costume helps sell the character via the setting of the play, to prevent the audience from not paying attention to the dialog and special effects. They will notice if the actor dressed in a 1720's costume was wearing track shoes. Off the stage, the person under the actor's mask, does not need the makeup. But trans seems to think they always need to always be in costume. When actors do that, they end up in the funny farm or on drugs.

What is interesting is gay and lesbian, who internally are no different from trans; have a desire for the same biological sex, do not require major surgery to be who they are. They may dress up, cross sexually, but in intimate situation, they can be themselves without a permanent costume.

We live in an entertainment based culture where entertainment is put on a pedestal; highest paid and most likes combined. Trans appears to be following the path of fame, becoming a permanent stereo type; type cast and always in character for internet tours.

So people who alter their bodies are playing pretend?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I didnt say I wouldn't be upset, please pay attention to what I write. I said it doesn't matter whether I am upset or not because I have a life to live.

So why do you care so much if some trans people are upset at being misgendered?

I am not going to waste my time complaining about something I don't control. Is that clear to you?

So, if people kept continually keying your car, or spitting in your face, you wouldn't complain? What if it was just an expected social thing? Like, because of how you were born, people felt it necessary to spit in your face and key your car regularly, when you would much rather they didn't. You don't think complaining about people doing that might be okay, under the circumstances?

I'm really have a hard time grasping your position here. It seems to be "Trans people shouldn't be upset when being misgendered, because I wouldn't be upset if similar things would be done to me; except I would be upset, I just wouldn't complain about it"?

Is that your position?

 

[Ignatius A]

So why do you care so much if some trans people are upset at being misgendered?


So, if people kept continually keying your car, or spitting in your face, you wouldn't complain? What if it was just an expected social thing? Like, because of how you were born, people felt it necessary to spit in your face and key your car regularly, when you would much rather they didn't. You don't think complaining about people doing that might be okay, under the circumstances?

I'm really have a hard time grasping your position here. It seems to be "Trans people shouldn't be upset when being misgendered, because I wouldn't be upset if similar things would be done to me; except I would be upset, I just wouldn't complain about it"?

Is that your position?

Because of their demand to control what I say to them and because no one deserves the verbal abuse they dish out when people don't get their pronouns right. How important do you think you are that you believe can demand what words people use and then abuse them when they don't.

My position is quite simple. This has NOTHING to do with who is or isn't or who should and shouldn't be upset about what other people say. Are we clear so far? My feelings about someone misgendering are mine. I can choose to focus on them and demand people call me he, but why? It won't do me a bit of good in my life. If my worth is based on whether you call me he or she then I have much bigger problems.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Because of their demand to control what I say to them and because no one deserves the verbal abuse they dish out when people don't get their pronouns right.

Firstly, we all demand to control what people say to us. That's what names and pronouns are.

Secondly, again, you're trading on a stereotype. I've explained repeatedly that the vast majority of trans people won't "verbally abuse" you for not using their pronouns, unless it's deliberate. And if it is deliberate, why would it bother you if they verbally abuse people who do it any more than it would bother you if I verbally abused someone who spat in my face or keyed my car? And if it's accidental, why does the existence of some trans people who overreact upset you so much?

How important do you think you are that you believe can demand what words people use and then abuse them when they don't.

How dare people have preferences and expect people to respect that. You're right. That's totally a thing that is explicitly only a thing trans people expect, and not at all a thing literally every person does and has.

Why does it bother you so much to extend the exact same level of respect to trans people as they would to you? If they verbally abuse you for accidentally getting their pronouns wrong, then that's their bad. I fail to see why this is any bigger a deal than you calling someone by the wrong name and them giving you abuse for it - which is also a thing that happens.

My position is quite simple. This has NOTHING to do with who is or isn't or who should and shouldn't be upset about what other people say.

And yet you say above that your issue is that some trans people get upset when you use the wrong pronouns. I mean, clearly it has SOMETHING to do with it.

Are we clear so far? My feelings about someone misgendering are mine. I can choose to focus on them and demand people call me he, but why? It won't do me a bit of good in my life. If my worth is based on whether you call me he or she then I have much bigger problems.

I mean, if your argument is just "It doesn't upset me as much as it upsets them", then congratulations: you've realised that not all people are the same, and different people react differently to different things for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately, I don't have a prize for you. But rest assured, you have surely raised the bar for all of us.

So, I ask again, why do you care that some trans people get overly upset if you misgender them? Why does that upset you so much that you call them freaks?

Tell me honestly. What has any trans person ever done to you?

 

[Ignatius A]

Firstly, we all demand to control what people say to us. That's what names and pronouns are.

Secondly, again, you're trading on a stereotype. I've explained repeatedly that the vast majority of trans people won't "verbally abuse" you for not using their pronouns, unless it's deliberate. And if it is deliberate, why would it bother you if they verbally abuse people who do it any more than it would bother you if I verbally abused someone who spat in my face or keyed my car? And if it's accidental, why does the existence of some trans people who overreact upset you so much?


How dare people have preferences and expect people to respect that. You're right. That's totally a thing that is explicitly only a thing trans people expect, and not at all a thing literally every person does and has.

Why does it bother you so much to extend the exact same level of respect to trans people as they would to you? If they verbally abuse you for accidentally getting their pronouns wrong, then that's their bad. I fail to see why this is any bigger a deal than you calling someone by the wrong name and them giving you abuse for it - which is also a thing that happens.


And yet you say above that your issue is that some trans people get upset when you use the wrong pronouns. I mean, clearly it has SOMETHING to do with it.


So, I ask again, why do you care that some trans people get overly upset if you misgender them? Why does that upset you so much that you call them freaks?

Tell me honestly. What has any trans person ever done to you?

Ok from now on I prefer you call me Lord and master. That's how I identify and that's how I expect you to refer to me.

Trans people have done nothing but demand I pay along with their fantasies. No one has made a coherent case for why I should. "Politeness" and "respect" don't cut it. Trans people express little politeness and almost no respect at all for other people.

Beyond all that the "what have (fill in the blank) ever done to you" argument is old and worn out. No murderer has ever done anything to me so I guess I can't say murder is bad.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Ok from now on I prefer you call me Lord and master. That's how I identify and that's how I expect you to refer to me.

You realise names and pronouns aren't the same things as titles, right?

Trans people have done nothing but demand I pay along with their fantasies.

You mean the way that you make everyone play along with your fantasies every time they use your preferred pronouns and name?

No one has made a coherent case for why I should.

I have made several coherent cases; the primary one being that it literally hurts no one and helps people, and it's extremely rude not to.

"Politeness" and "respect" don't cut it.

Yes they do. That's literally the only reason people wouldn't call you a little girl except to display disrespect to you. When you deliberately misgender someone, you are achieving nothing other than harming or upsetting them. Why?

Trans people express little politeness and almost no respect at all for other people.

You keep saying this, but you clearly have never met a trans person. The vast majority of them - just as with the vast majority of any group - are perfectly polite and respectful. And you respond to their politeness and respect by calling them "freaks" engaging in "fantasies". Clearly there is someone in the relationship between you and trans people who is displaying a lack of politeness and respect, and it's not them.

Beyond all that the "what have (fill in the blank) ever done to you" argument is old and worn out. No murderer has ever done anything to me so I guess I can't say murder is bad.

Ah yes, the logic of comparing a group of people simply existing with the act of murder. Great logic.

It's very simple: you are clearly unreasonably upset at trans people. You have made lots of baseless accusations against ALL trans people. You have called them names. You have repeatedly stated that they are rude and lack respect.

Why?

 

[LadyJane]

What is interesting is gay and lesbian, who internally are no different from trans; have a desire for the same biological sex, do not require major surgery to be who they are. They may dress up, cross sexually, but in intimate situation, they can be themselves without a permanent costume.

It depends who the transperson seeks out post transition. It may differ, it may stay the same. Then there are those they are seeking who come with their own experiences. And who cares? Are they free to live their lives? Are they free to change their minds?

What people do with their bodies, surgically or otherwise, is deeply personal. Like any intimate relationship. How bout a little privacy? I'm beginning to think the folks who can't stop imagining it may be the ones with a fetish.

A "permanent costume" says it all. It's not a costume if it's permanent. Those are clothes.

 

[Ignatius A]

You realise names and pronouns aren't the same things as titles, right?


You mean the way that you make everyone play along with your fantasies every time they use your preferred pronouns and name?


I have made several coherent cases; the primary one being that it literally hurts no one and helps people, and it's extremely rude not to.


Yes they do. That's literally the only reason people wouldn't call you a little girl except to display disrespect to you. When you deliberately misgender someone, you are achieving nothing other than harming or upsetting them. Why?


You keep saying this, but you clearly have never met a trans person. The vast majority of them - just as with the vast majority of any group - are perfectly polite and respectful. And you respond to their politeness and respect by calling them "freaks" engaging in "fantasies". Clearly there is someone in the relationship between you and trans people who is displaying a lack of politeness and respect, and it's not them.


Ah yes, the logic of comparing a group of people simply existing with the act of murder. Great logic.

It's very simple: you are clearly unreasonably upset at trans people. You have made lots of baseless accusations against ALL trans people. You have called them names. You have repeatedly stated that they are rude and lack respect.

Why?

It's a distinction you make. If this is about being polite and respectful by calling people what they want to be called then why would you refuse to be polite and respectful. See this is the crux of the problem. This is the problem of special pleading. Trans people have little respect for or are polite to others.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It's a distinction you make. If this is about being polite and respectful by calling people what they want to be called then why would you refuse to be polite and respectful. See this is the crux of the problem. This is the problem of special pleading. Trans people have little respect for or are polite to others.

You keep saying this, but that's just nonsense. What on earth have trans people, collectively, done to indicate that they have no respect or politeness towards people?

Have you never met a respectful or polite trans person? Seriously?

 

[Ignatius A]

You keep saying this, but that's just nonsense. What on earth have trans people, collectively, done to indicate that they have no respect or politeness towards people?

Have you never met a respectful or polite trans person? Seriously?

I believe there is ample evidence for horrific behavior on the part of trans people. Beyond that if this.is genuinely about politeness and respect but calling people what they want to be called how is anyone able to say I shouldn't be called Lord and Master. Again special pleading for those that are trans.

I meet plenty of people who are polite and respectful. If they are trans, gay or martian I haven't got the foggiest clue but that's the point. Things have become mired in what group you belong to and not how you behave.

 

[LadyJane]

I believe there is ample evidence for horrific behavior on the part of trans people.

Trot it out, Sally.

 

[Ignatius A]

Trot it out, Sally.

You clearly have the skills to operate a computer.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I believe there is ample evidence for horrific behavior on the part of trans people.

Such as...?

Beyond that if this.is genuinely about politeness and respect but calling people what they want to be called how is anyone able to say I shouldn't be called Lord and Master.

The nature of how titles work in a social context. Names and pronouns aren't the same as titles.

Again special pleading for those that are trans.

It's not special pleading to acknowledge that different things have different uses in different contexts. It's obvious to anyone that a title and a pronoun are not the same thing. There's no special pleading necessary to acknowledge that two different things... are two different things.

I meet plenty of people who are polite and respectful. If they are trans, gay or martian I haven't got the foggiest clue but that's the point. Things have become mired in what group you belong to and not how you behave.

So, considering this, why do you specifically seem so upset at trans people if they don't behave in a way that upsets you? Why not just say "some trans people behave badly, but trans people who don't behave badly are fine." Instead, you keep insisting - against all reason - that ALL trans people behave badly.

Which is obviously and demonstrably false.

 

[VoidCat]

... I dont fly off the handle when folk misgender me unless the person is being malicious...

Im nonbinary by the way and have a very complicated gender identity that has spiritual and religious aspects to it. Most the time if someone misgenders me I don't even usually address it unless it's intentional and meant to be harmful.

 

[VoidCat]

So my question is when people go for gender reassignment/confirming surgery could someone choose zuch surgery to become, Two Spirit?

There's actually many options for nonbinary folk and surgery. Many. I've considered a few...even if i dont get them tho im still nonbinary

 

[Ignatius A]

Such as...?


The nature of how titles work in a social context. Names and pronouns aren't the same as titles.


It's not special pleading to acknowledge that different things have different uses in different contexts. It's obvious to anyone that a title and a pronoun are not the same thing. There's no special pleading necessary to acknowledge that two different things... are two different things.


So, considering this, why do you specifically seem so upset at trans people if they don't behave in a way that upsets you? Why not just say "some trans people behave badly, but trans people who don't behave badly are fine." Instead, you keep insisting - against all reason - that ALL trans people behave badly.

Which is obviously and demonstrably false.

You clearly know how to operate a computer.

It's amazing how you get to determine what I can call myself but I can't call a man in a dress a man. This is why I have little regard for this kind of thing. This isn't about some lofty ideal it's just low-level identity politics.

 

[VoidCat]

Here's a link to a list of different possible surgeries... Surgery - Nonbinary Wiki

There's also options not listed like subincision Penile subincision - Wikipedia which I've heard some folk get not as a cultural thing but as an optional body modification thing. I reckon someone could get it done as gender affirmation. You can also get piercings and implants to change the look of your genitals and chest.

 

[Ignatius A]

There's actually many options for nonbinary folk and surgery. Many. I've considered a few...even if i dont get them tho im still nonbinary

Thanks but it doesnt really answer the question does it? What you call yourself isnt really of much interest to me other than to say if someone identifies as one of the many genders that supposedly exists, why's does surgery entail to help a person express that gender. I used "two spirits" as an example. What happens in "two spirit" surgery?

 

[Ignatius A]

Here's a link to a list of different possible surgeries... Surgery - Nonbinary Wiki

There's also options not listed like subincision Penile subincision - Wikipedia which I've heard some folk get not as a cultural thing but as an optional body modification thing. I reckon someone could get it done as gender affirmation. You can also get piercings and implants to change the look of your genitals and chest.

So it's basically take stuff off or put stuff on, right?