God and his hatred of homosexuality

[sojourner]

YES! Behaviors truly don't matter to God. Only belief does.

That's why Jesus never said, "Believe these things about me," but he did say, "Do as I do."

Behaviors are all part of the body only. Beliefs are of the heart.

This is a theologically shallow division of the whole human being.

Now, let me show you how awesome true grace is.

Grace is awesome, but grace doesn't hate the body, the way you portray here.

Religious man has F'd that one up to make himself appear more righteous. This one lie is a huge foundation of the current religion of Christianity that God will destroy at the end of this age... along with the entire Christian "religion" that believes it.

Rot! Apologetics ain't your strong suit, is it! Salvation comes through the "religion," not in spite of it. That's because the "religion" has been given the keys to the kingdom. But nice try at projecting your false righteousness on someone else.

This whole idea of "sin as unbelief" and simply "trusting God" is why the true walk of and in the spirit SCARES the H$LL out of the church.

You have no idea what you're talking about. the only thing that concerns the church is the masses actually believing the untenable "theology" you're spewing here.

They want to control via a set of outer rules and laws to follow.

This would be funny if it weren't so utterly sad and tired.

The entire current Church that is still under and teaching Old Covenant law will die when the real, living truth appears to us but first IN us. And he is now... it's from WITHIN!

That is what the church teaches.

Please, for the love of God! Leave the theology to those who have adequate training. You're going to mess everyone up.

 

[sojourner]

No, you are missing the point. From Gods point of view there is no difference between any of these behaviors or any other way we humans "miss the mark" and are "not perfect".

You're missing the point that homosexuality isn't about behavior -- it's about identity. One's identity cannot be sin.

 

[sojourner]

That's all they are: behaviors. Not definitions of who we are.

Not so with homosexuality. One's sexual orientation is part of one's identity, or "definitions of who we are."

 

[sojourner]

Much more so than the religious "Church" called Christianity teaches.

You don't know what the church teaches. First of all, you place "church" in "quotation marks," which implies that you don't think it's real, or that you have something "better." I can assure you that it is, and that you do not. Second, you've misrepresented what the church teaches in all of your posts, offering us, instead, some pretend theology that you're selling us like snake oil. We're not buying.

 

[sojourner]

On the other hand, if they do believe inside what God says is true but yet they themselves try to purposely maintain their homosexual behavior (without surrendering it to God), they will be constantly convicted inside as a hypocrite or as a liar. They will NOT be able to escape it until they fully surrender to God.

This right here is insidiously disguised dehumanization. Stop. It.!

 

[sojourner]

You're completely oblivious to your own convolutions, aren't you?

Good call!

 

[Fredx10]

By the same reasoning, I guess you could have murder in your heart as long as you don't commit it. Hate to see a roll in the gay hay taken all that seriously.

 

[Tiafa]

That is an awesome question.

First, of all, who says anyone is "gay"? Does God say that in his word or is that what man says or calls himself and others?

So, who are we to believe? Man or God?

I think God says man's body has wrong cravings and desires. This is whether it is for homosexuality or fat foods, alcohol, cigarettes, or even PORN. All of our bodies crave something other than God. He made them crave an image vs. himself. This is the power of sin that HE put in there. Why? See romans 11:32. It's beautiful.

Second, we have to have a true understanding (revelation) of the meaning of the word "obey". Under the old covenant of law it is "to do" or "to perform". It is man's actions to receive righteousness from God is it not?

Isn't this IMPOSSIBLE? Yes it is. Man can not receive anything but DEATH under the old covenant of law. Thus, Jesus revealed the TRUE meaning of the word "obey" and it is NO LONGER about man's performance or him "doing to become" or "do to receive" as the law said.

Under the new and TRUE covenant of GRACE it has a whole new meaning. TRUE "obedience" means simply to "believe God" or to have "faith". True "obedience" is the "obedience of faith" or simply "to believe God will do what he says he will". Romans 1:5 and 16:26.

We don't try to make these things appear ourselves. That would be under the law and feed us death. We simply trust him to do it. He may use us, he may not. It's up to him. So, we will not arrive at "perfection" in this natural body. This natural body has one purpose... to die. God will NOT fix it. It will die. The "flesh" can never be obedient. See Romans 8.

Thus, true "obedience" is simply believing God at his very word and simply waiting for him to make it "appear" or true to you personally. He may or may not make it appear while in the dead, natural body under the power of sin. Thus, a person may be stuck in the body of an overeater or porn addict or homosexual for his entire life, but they themselves in the true inner man ARE NOT THOSE PEOPLE! This is the TRUE circumcision which is of the heart and NOT the outer flesh. This is when God himself separated our dead outer man (of the flesh) from our TRUE being of our heart and inner man. This is a true (spiritual) Jew who is anyone who simply believes God at what he says but can't yet see it! If they can see it, that is NOT OF FAITH. Right?

Now, we know why God leaves us in bodies that do things we don't like. To lead us to faith in him. The law and sin is our tutor to lead us to faith and trust in God. But, God will not remove all sin of the natural body or we will boast. Won't we? I know I will.

See Romans 2:28-29 and Col 2:11-14 on the true (spiritual) circumcision. Very powerful and FREEING WORDS no matter what behaviors a person struggles with in their natural body.

I hope you're not hinting to "Pray away the gay", because that doesn't work, you know right?

Exodus International Shuts Down: Christian Ministry Apologizes To LGBT Community And Halts Operations
The Conversion Of Evangelicals On Marriage « The Dish
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/h...or-study-on-gay-cure.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[NulliuSINverba]

... god doesn't necessarily hate the homosexual, just the physical intimacy (s)he shares with those of the same sex. Acknowledging this is correct---I see no reason to contest the point--- why would god be against such intimacy?

Because God can never truly experience intimacy of any kind? Because he's obliged to settle on vicarious observation?

According to the book he dictated to us, God has no peers from whom he could select a partner. And even if he did have peers, wouldn't that whole omnipotence thing make it impossible for anyone to share their hopes and dreams with him?

No intimacy = barely suppressed hatred of intimacy. That's the exposé.

...

I won't even get into the psychology of eternal self-gratification. Forever is a long time to not touch yourself.

 

[we-live-now]

You're completely oblivious to your own convolutions, aren't you?

If you say so.

I am curious however. Is this response (that is attacking me personally vs. the truth I share) coming from a "Christian" POV or a non-believing POV? This is often the type of response I get from the religious Christian in the institutional "church". The one who wants others to be excluded from their private, exclusive club they have created called their "denomination".

I don't know if this your standpoint or not. You didn't elaborate.

I am only sharing what I hear when I deeply study the Bible from front to back in the original words and have no man interpret it for me. I just think (and listen, journal and write), something so many Christians are trained not to do. Even any translation of the original words is man's interpretation is it not?

Why are people so offended when I tell them the truth I see that God says in the original languages that we are all included in his family and are part of his (spiritual) "son"?

 

[we-live-now]

I hope you're not hinting to "Pray away the gay", because that doesn't work, you know right?

Exodus International Shuts Down: Christian Ministry Apologizes To LGBT Community And Halts Operations
The Conversion Of Evangelicals On Marriage « The Dish
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/health/dr-robert-l-spitzer-noted-psychiatrist-apologizes-for-study-on-gay-cure.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Yes, that is what I am saying. Man can't do anything about what the law or the OLD covenant calls "sin" which is unrighteous behavior. 100% of man's behavior is unrighteous. The only behavior of man that God calls righteous is believing God or "faith".

TRUE "Faith" says "I am in a body that exhibits 'gay' behavior (or whatever the "sin"/behavior is), but God tells me in his word that I AM NOT GAY. "I" (the true me) is NOT the body I am in. I will choose to agree with him even if (especially IF!) I don't see it. I will wait on him to make it "appear" (change the behavior). I will do what he says and go where he wants me to go. This will always feed me life and love and others too around me."

THIS IS TRUE FAITH! It is staying put, trusting God while trying to get to know him better and simply "living".

True faith is NOT going to "confession" everyday or weekly, reading your Bible more to get rid of the "gay" or "praying more" or "volunteering more" or or or or....

THOSE ARE ALL LAW (OLD COVENANT) based answers! They will do nothing but feed you more death as you are relying on your own self efforts. These are the very things the "church" teaches and why so many don't go there. We all want to be loved (and GOD DOES LOVE US ALL!) but no one wants to be reminded of something they can't fix and be told they are "unacceptable", "bad" or "evil" because of it.

The "Church" truly reveals they don't know scripture when they teach this. Even "reading the Bible more" or "going to church" will NOT MAKE YOU one bit more righteous. The current church is still the "church of the old covenant". This is changing and WILL change. The "new" covenant is appearing INSIDE of us. The "old covenant" church will die and be replaced by the new covenant Church where ALL are accepted and loved.

Sin is much bigger than just what you call "gay". Much bigger than mere "actions" or behavior. It is unbelief of the true reality because man inside or outside can not "see" God directly by default. Man's soul has been "disjointed" and thus he does not see God directly by default and thus ALL that man does is technically "sin". "Sin'" merely means "missing the mark" or "not being perfect". Thus, "gay" is no different in God's eyes than "stealing" or "lying" or any of the other millions of "sins" as behaviors we could name.

Once a person see's this powerful truth that scripture truly reveals (and God himself powerfully confirms in his heart), he starts to understand that he does these behaviors BECAUSE THAT IS HOW GOD MADE HIM (for now). Guilt and shame will start to go away and power, love, peace and joy will appear. He will fully begin to trust "God" (as he knows him personally) to do any changes (if required), Any (true) changes will always start from the inside of "knowing" and flow to the outside of "doing". Not vice-versa like the Church teaches. This "change" is really God himself inside revealing to them the person he has always been... his own child.

This powerful truth takes a lot of "faith" to believe. But, it is VERY good.

 

[Skwim]

Because God can never truly experience intimacy of any kind? Because he's obliged to settle on vicarious observation?

According to the book he dictated to us, God has no peers from whom he could select a partner. And even if he did have peers, wouldn't that whole omnipotence thing make it impossible for anyone to share their hopes and dreams with him?

No intimacy = barely suppressed hatred of intimacy. That's the exposé.

...

I won't even get into the psychology of eternal self-gratification. Forever is a long time to not touch yourself.

So why single out homosexuals, or is he simply a bigoted heterosexual?

 

[we-live-now]

So are you one those people who believe that being gay is fine but that gay sex is a sin?

You are still defining sin the way those do who are under law - as immoral behavior. (This definition of sin does still have natural consequences but it is not how God truly defines sin in the hidden realm of the "spirit".)

With God either a person's actions are 100% sinful all the time (if you define sin as "behavior") or they are without sin completely (if you define sin as belief and do "believe" God even if you don't know "how").

The difference is belief (the attitude of their heart). And you can not mix these definitions sometimes using one and sometimes using another. This is hypocrisy.

Basically, do they want to change but simply haven't been able to? That is a key question. Next is "are they trusting God to change them and trying to do what they think he is saying?" These things will be light, easy and from a place of "knowing" and rest. Not from a place of condemnation and heavy burden or guilt. God never uses GUILT to change us. Guilt is always tied to the law.

God says a person who exhibits "gay" behavior but believes what God says to and about him while "walking" with him daily... is without sin.

Same for a thief.
Same for an adulterer.
Same for a porn addict.
Same for a gossip.
Etc.
Etc.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

God says a person who exhibits "gay" behavior but believes what God says to and about him while "walking" with him daily... is without sin.
Same for a thief.
Same for an adulterer.
Same for a porn addict.
Same for a gossip.

What I don't get is why you are equating being gay ( a sexual orientation ) with those other things, which are about people choosing to act in a harmful way.
You seem to be saying that being gay is a matter of choice, and that it is harmful. Have I got that right?

 

[NulliuSINverba]

So why single out homosexuals, or is he simply a bigoted heterosexual?

Because he'd already issued his directive to "be fruitful and multiply?"

 

[Tiafa]

Because he'd already issued his directive to "be fruitful and multiply?"

Isn't Celibacy considered a gift? What of people who cannot or choose not to have children?

 

[Tiafa]

Yes, that is what I am saying. Man can't do anything about what the law or the OLD covenant calls "sin" which is unrighteous behavior. 100% of man's behavior is unrighteous. The only behavior of man that God calls righteous is believing God or "faith".

TRUE "Faith" says "I am in a body that exhibits 'gay' behavior (or whatever the "sin"/behavior is), but God tells me in his word that I AM NOT GAY. "I" (the true me) is NOT the body I am in. I will choose to agree with him even if (especially IF!) I don't see it. I will wait on him to make it "appear" (change the behavior). I will do what he says and go where he wants me to go. This will always feed me life and love and others too around me."

THIS IS TRUE FAITH! It is staying put, trusting God while trying to get to know him better and simply "living".

True faith is NOT going to "confession" everyday or weekly, reading your Bible more to get rid of the "gay" or "praying more" or "volunteering more" or or or or....

THOSE ARE ALL LAW (OLD COVENANT) based answers! They will do nothing but feed you more death as you are relying on your own self efforts. These are the very things the "church" teaches and why so many don't go there. We all want to be loved (and GOD DOES LOVE US ALL!) but no one wants to be reminded of something they can't fix and be told they are "unacceptable", "bad" or "evil" because of it.

The "Church" truly reveals they don't know scripture when they teach this. Even "reading the Bible more" or "going to church" will NOT MAKE YOU one bit more righteous. The current church is still the "church of the old covenant". This is changing and WILL change. The "new" covenant is appearing INSIDE of us. The "old covenant" church will die and be replaced by the new covenant Church where ALL are accepted and loved.

Sin is much bigger than just what you call "gay". Much bigger than mere "actions" or behavior. It is unbelief of the true reality because man inside or outside can not "see" God directly by default. Man's soul has been "disjointed" and thus he does not see God directly by default and thus ALL that man does is technically "sin". "Sin'" merely means "missing the mark" or "not being perfect". Thus, "gay" is no different in God's eyes than "stealing" or "lying" or any of the other millions of "sins" as behaviors we could name.

Once a person see's this powerful truth that scripture truly reveals (and God himself powerfully confirms in his heart), he starts to understand that he does these behaviors BECAUSE THAT IS HOW GOD MADE HIM (for now). Guilt and shame will start to go away and power, love, peace and joy will appear. He will fully begin to trust "God" (as he knows him personally) to do any changes (if required), Any (true) changes will always start from the inside of "knowing" and flow to the outside of "doing". Not vice-versa like the Church teaches. This "change" is really God himself inside revealing to them the person he has always been... his own child.

This powerful truth takes a lot of "faith" to believe. But, it is VERY good.

But obviously we should not lie or steal or kill and all that. We're supposed to repent, no? How does one repent of an orientation? "I'm sorry you made me this way"?

 

[Skwim]

Because he'd already issued his directive to "be fruitful and multiply?"

So how about those heterosexuals who, for whatever reason, cannot or choose not to"be fruitful and multiply"? Does god condemn their sexuality like he does homosexuality? Not in any bible I've ever read.

 

[Ingledsva]

Because he'd already issued his directive to "be fruitful and multiply?"

Since when is "be fruitful and multiply" a command to anyone? Even Adam and Chav'vah (a STORY)? According to the story they only have three sons. Why can't it be a typical Hebrew blessing?

*

 

[NulliuSINverba]

Since when is "be fruitful and multiply" a command to anyone?

Perhaps that's a question best directed to the theists who're operating under the assumption that is in fact a command?

You're invited to start here, here, and here.

If you need more, I'm sure we can drum up a few. Happy Hunting!

Meanwhile, if you were told "Be on time, or we're leaving without you" would you view it as a command, or a blessing?

Even Adam and Chav'vah (a STORY)? According to the story they only have three sons. Why can't it be a typical Hebrew blessing?

Blessings aren't typically worded as imperatives, are they?

I'd be more inclined to read it as a blessing if it said "May you be fruitful and multiply."