God/Yahweh/Allah I BELIEVE started as volcanic activity

[Breathe]

The archaeological evidence of the largely indigenous origins of Israel is "overwhelming," and leaves "no room for an Exodus from Egypt or a 40-year pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness.

Agreed.

I've also seen people attempting to connect Moses to a priest of Atenism shortly after it was banned, and they left. However, the problem here is that we don't know if Atenism was an influence on ancient Judaism (let alone the originator of it as it would be), or even if Moses or the exodus has any basis in reality. Chances are the Exodus story was either made up completely, or was a very small number of people who actually left.

Plus.. a 40-year pilgrimage from one place to another is.. a little odd. How slow would they have to be going if it was meant to be literal? Shouldn't going from about the Nile to Canaan take about four or five months, tops?

How slow would they have been travelling? Better yet, how lost would they have to be? Numbers 33 lists (if it was taken historically) 42 locations they dwelled at. How long did they dwell at each place? Nearly a year at a time?

 

[outhouse]

Agreed.

I've also seen people attempting to connect Moses to a priest of Atenism shortly after it was banned, and they left. However, the problem here is that we don't know if Atenism was an influence on ancient Judaism (let alone the originator of it as it would be), or even if Moses or the exodus has any basis in reality. Chances are the Exodus story was either made up completely, or was a very small number of people who actually left.

Plus.. a 40-year pilgrimage from one place to another is.. a little odd. How slow would they have to be going if it was meant to be literal? Shouldn't going from about the Nile to Canaan take about four or five months, tops?

How slow would they have been travelling? Better yet, how lost would they have to be? Numbers 33 lists (if it was taken historically) 42 locations they dwelled at. How long did they dwell at each place? Nearly a year at a time?

like many legends, there can be a small grain of truth hidden in it.

Ancient semetic speaking people did migrate from egypt, well all areas in the levant over hundreds of years starting a little before 1200BC and by 1000BC you had a new culture with a grown foundation.

Normally oral tradition holds legends together very well, once you add the fact were talking about a cross cultural story, theres no way a egyptian legend will remain a egyptian piece or pieces. Fact is hundreds of years after the formation of hebrews the legend was created to help explain their beginnings in allegory to teach morals and lessons inportant at that time.

 

[Breathe]

Agreed; there may be some truth behind the legends.
As we know, though, people tend to exaggerate things.

 

[The Fog Horn]

like many legends, there can be a small grain of truth hidden in it.

Ancient semetic speaking people did migrate from egypt, well all areas in the levant over hundreds of years starting a little before 1200BC and by 1000BC you had a new culture with a grown foundation.

Normally oral tradition holds legends together very well, once you add the fact were talking about a cross cultural story, theres no way a egyptian legend will remain a egyptian piece or pieces. Fact is hundreds of years after the formation of hebrews the legend was created to help explain their beginnings in allegory to teach morals and lessons inportant at that time.

If that is correct, how come the Hebrews willingly made themselves out to be theives? The Bible states they stole the Egyptians' treasure when they left. Why on earth would they write that into their fake history??? There is absolutely no logical explanation for it. Moses murdering the Egyptian policeman.....why write about that if the Hebrews didn't originate from Egypt and it never happened? Why make out your super hero and saviour is a murderer when he is not? These bits of added information in the Bible need to be seen as signs that the Bible is based on facts. I cannot understand why anyone would think it was totally or even mostly made up. If you were to re-create your own family history in order to give your family a more coherent past, would you add in a murder and a massive theft? Logic and reason are lacking on the atheist side as much as the theist side, and I have noticed more atheists arguing with me....so maybe the atheists have it.

 

[Riverwolf]

If that is correct, how come the Hebrews willingly made themselves out to be theives? The Bible states they stole the Egyptians' treasure when they left. Why on earth would they write that into their fake history??? There is absolutely no logical explanation for it. Moses murdering the Egyptian policeman.....why write about that if the Hebrews didn't originate from Egypt and it never happened? Why make out your super hero and saviour is a murderer when he is not? These bits of added information in the Bible need to be seen as signs that the Bible is based on facts. I cannot understand why anyone would think it was totally or even mostly made up. If you were to re-create your own family history in order to give your family a more coherent past, would you add in a murder and a massive theft? Logic and reason are lacking on the atheist side as much as the theist side, and I have noticed more atheists arguing with me....so maybe the atheists have it.

Hardly.

I believe the policeman was abusing a slave, and Moses killing him was an accident.

They also sort of won a war, and in those days, winning a war meant you got to keep the spoils; i.e., the treasure.

I'll betcha the Talmud addresses these points.

 

[outhouse]

If that is correct, how come the Hebrews willingly made themselves out to be theives? The Bible states they stole the Egyptians' treasure when they left. Why on earth would they write that into their fake history???

spoils of war do not make them theives. Second it never happened that way, according to scholars , historians and egyptologist. We are talking about legends that grew from oral tradition and were later redacted/edited many times as the people and culture changed. Moses was a much later addition and has ZERO historicity. That means the people in the know, know he never existed as written. [allot like noah]

Moses murdering the Egyptian policeman.....why write about that if the Hebrews didn't originate from Egypt and it never happened?

Some semetic speaking people did migrate from egypt, as they did from babylonian and sumerian cultures as well as semetic nomadic tribes. Ancient hebrews wrote these allegorical legends to teach there lessons on their percieved herritage. they heard the legends around campfires ect for hundreds of years they had no reason to doubt these legends.

Why make out your super hero and saviour is a murderer when he is not?

really? their deity was the same way if not worse. We are talking about oppression and war.

I cannot understand why anyone would think it was totally or even mostly made up.

the first five books even by hebrews are not follwoed as accurate history because they knew it allegorical legends. AGAIN hebrews had no idea these thinsg didnt happen they were old fables because they were talking about hundreds and hundreds of years in the past.

Thes old writings were not even really part of any holy book in the beginning, they were a collection of writings in private collectors hands that were collected and edited to meet local needs and thoughts on the subject only certain people found to be important.

These are only a fraction of what was once written.

If you were to re-create your own family history in order to give your family a more coherent past, would you add in a murder and a massive theft?

your trying to paint a picture that doesnt exist.

They lived in barbaric and primitive times, the deity they worshipped was much worse then what your talking about.


You have to remember, they lives in a time when mythology was believed, heart and soul.

 

[charles brough]

I've got hundreds of Biblical verses that demonstrate the Hebrew worship in volcanic activity. I've posted a few of them throughout this thread.
PSA 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
ISA 30:27 Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:

As a devoit fellow atheist, I have troubled myself to dredge though this very long thread as you asked me many posts ago. So, I found your post #174 which appears to have summed it up your hypothesis. You mention that it is simple. I agree; it is simple because there is much more to the origin and basis of religion than that.

As your sources above indicate, the Scriptures do often emphasize a fear of fire, and some early volcano very likely has helped shape religions---at least the patriarchal-monogamous religious sytems of the last five thousand years. But do you know any religious connection with volcanoes in the mythological lore of prehistory that still lingers on into historic times. I am unaware of any in the cave paintings in Europe. What about the religion of the Australian Bushman living where there has never been volcanic activity in at least the last million years?

Perhaps you are referring only to the origin of Judaism. Archeological and historical data indicates that Judaism evolved from "the Babylonian captivety." This could have been far later than any volcanic ativity connected to continental drift.

It seems religion arose as a need for people to agree on the explanation of things so they could get along once we began using speech. We then easily understood the mind or consciousness directs the body what to do and logically (for the times)reasoned, therefore, that "we" were seperate from the body. We logically (for the times) then concluded that everything also had a "spirit" within it telling it what to do. That is a brief accounting of the origin of religion as put down in detail in my book, "the Last Civilization."

Fire was feared as well as depended upon for obvious reasons, so the concept of the alpha male would show power by a display of fire. Even dragons were emitting it. Hell was supposed to be a place of fire. Forest fires and comets (such as the Muslim black rock in the Kabba) are reasonably thought to also play a role in the picture.

Anyway, I still think you should have begun this thread with an explanation of your hypothesis since even you admit it is simple. It could have been explained early on and saved a lot of the confusion that has made this overly long thread . . .

 

[cablescavenger]

What is the Hebrew? It may not be quite "poured out" after all.

Even so, even if these are appearances of the Abrahamic God are shown in common with volcanoes, it does not mean that the people worshipped a volcano. Even if it was a GOD of volcanoes, it still would not mean the people worshipped a volcano.

And especially now, it would not mean the same thing.

You are also forgetting that religions are written in languages, and languages use metaphors. Religions use mythology, fables, idioms, and even anthromorphisms to explain things to people.

You are forgeting fairytale and make believe.

 

[The Fog Horn]

Hardly.

I believe the policeman was abusing a slave, and Moses killing him was an accident.

They also sort of won a war, and in those days, winning a war meant you got to keep the spoils; i.e., the treasure.

I'll betcha the Talmud addresses these points.

'I believe'..... You might well believe that if you read a sanitised version of the Bible but the truth is that he witnesses a Hebrew being struck by a policeman, looked over both shoulders to make sure no-one was watching, killed the policeman and buried the evidence. That is pre-meditated murder. Given this account is biased as it comes from the Hebrew side, maybe the actual truth is that the Hebrew was caught stealing something and the policeman reprimanded him for it. Now that sounds far more realistic.

What war are you talking about? The Hebrews stole jewellery from their employers and neighbours when in positions of trust and then snuck off with in en masses. There was no war. Am I debating with someone who hasn't got the faintest idea what we're talking about? I thought I was the novice.

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death – the lake of fire.
Matthew 13:42 Jesus Christ said the lost will finally be cast “into a furnace of fire.”
Matthew 3:12 John the Baptist said the lost will end up in “unquenchable fire.”

 

[The Fog Horn]

As a devoit fellow atheist, I have troubled myself to dredge though this very long thread as you asked me many posts ago. So, I found your post #174 which appears to have summed it up your hypothesis. You mention that it is simple. I agree; it is simple because there is much more to the origin and basis of religion than that.

As your sources above indicate, the Scriptures do often emphasize a fear of fire, and some early volcano very likely has helped shape religions---at least the patriarchal-monogamous religious sytems of the last five thousand years. But do you know any religious connection with volcanoes in the mythological lore of prehistory that still lingers on into historic times. I am unaware of any in the cave paintings in Europe. What about the religion of the Australian Bushman living where there has never been volcanic activity in at least the last million years?

Perhaps you are referring only to the origin of Judaism. Archeological and historical data indicates that Judaism evolved from "the Babylonian captivety." This could have been far later than any volcanic ativity connected to continental drift.

It seems religion arose as a need for people to agree on the explanation of things so they could get along once we began using speech. We then easily understood the mind or consciousness directs the body what to do and logically (for the times)reasoned, therefore, that "we" were seperate from the body. We logically (for the times) then concluded that everything also had a "spirit" within it telling it what to do. That is a brief accounting of the origin of religion as put down in detail in my book, "the Last Civilization."

Fire was feared as well as depended upon for obvious reasons, so the concept of the alpha male would show power by a display of fire. Even dragons were emitting it. Hell was supposed to be a place of fire. Forest fires and comets (such as the Muslim black rock in the Kabba) are reasonably thought to also play a role in the picture.

Anyway, I still think you should have begun this thread with an explanation of your hypothesis since even you admit it is simple. It could have been explained early on and saved a lot of the confusion that has made this overly long thread . . .

Your last comment....I did TWICE and it was deleted twice.

The lake of fire.....it doesn't take a genius to work out what that could be! Inside the volcano!! Oh dear.

Isaiah: 5:26 And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly.
Revelations: 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Exodus: 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
•Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”

 

[outhouse]

'I believe'..... You might well believe that if you read a sanitised version of the Bible but the truth is that he witnesses a Hebrew being struck by a policeman, looked over both shoulders to make sure no-one was watching, killed the policeman and buried the evidence. That is pre-meditated murder. Given this account is biased as it comes from the Hebrew side, maybe the actual truth is that the Hebrew was caught stealing something and the policeman reprimanded him for it. Now that sounds far more realistic.

What war are you talking about? The Hebrews stole jewellery from their employers and neighbours when in positions of trust and then snuck off with in en masses. There was no war. Am I debating with someone who hasn't got the faintest idea what we're talking about? I thought I was the novice.

I really hope thats not the best you have.


A case from ignorance is not a case.


your still throwing darts in a darkroom

 

[The Fog Horn]

LAKE OF FIRE

What lake of fire burns with 'fire and sulpher'?

What lake of fire that burns with fire and sulpher could also be described as a bottomless pit?

What lake of fire that burns with fire and sulpher, and is described as a bottomless pit, is also be described as a devouring fire?

Lake of fire, sulpher, bottomless pit, devouring fire, brimstone (pumice), eternal fire?

What Does the Bible Say About Lake Of Fire?

Dear me! So many atheists who I don't think want to believe it.

 

[The Fog Horn]

I really hope thats not the best you have.


A case from ignorance is not a case.


your still throwing darts in a darkroom

It's amazing how many posts you've made that make no sense and make no point.

What's your point?

 

[outhouse]

LAKE OF FIRE

What lake of fire burns with 'fire and sulpher'?

What lake of fire that burns with fire and sulpher could also be described as a bottomless pit?

What lake of fire that burns with fire and sulpher, and is described as a bottomless pit, is also be described as a devouring fire?

Lake of fire, sulpher, bottomless pit, devouring fire, brimstone (pumice), eternal fire?

What Does the Bible Say About Lake Of Fire?

Dear me! So many atheists who I don't think want to believe it.

the lake of fire started out from gehenna or the valley of hinom.

It was said to be a burning 24/7 garbage dump in which sinners bodies were burned right outside the city walls.

it was said to have looked like a lake of fire at night.


not a volcano

 

[outhouse]

It's amazing how many posts you've made that make no sense and make no point.

What's your point?

Are you looking at a mirror.???



If you had half a education on the subject you would be able to follow a long.

 

[The Fog Horn]

the lake of fire started out from gehenna or the valley of hinom.

It was said to be a burning 24/7 garbage dump in which sinners bodies were burned right outside the city walls.

it was said to have looked like a lake of fire at night.


not a volcano

That does not mean the inside of volcanoes did not become the hell of Hebrews. How many rubbish dumps burn like a lake, and produce sulpher and fire out firey balls of brimstone?

Keep smacking your head and you might knock some sense into it.

 

[outhouse]

That does not mean the inside of volcanoes did not become the hell of Hebrews. How many rubbish dumps burn like a lake, and produce sulpher and fire out firey balls of brimstone?

Keep smacking your head and you might knock some sense into it.

Hell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Gehenna refers to the "Valley of Hinnon", which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. It was a place where people burned their garbage and thus there was always a fire burning there. Bodies of those deemed to have died in sin without hope of salvation (such as people who committed suicide) were thrown there to be destroyed.[24] Gehenna is used in the New Testament as a metaphor for the final place of punishment for the wicked after the resurrection.



Gehenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, Jewish folklore suggests the valley had a 'gate' which led down to a molten lake of fire.[citation needed]




KEY WORD FOLKLORE not a baseless opinion

 

[cablescavenger]

I believe god/yahweh/allah started out as volcanic activity. Please discuss this with me. Anything I say will be in my own words unless clearly stated with links to the original source. Please ask anything you want.

I like the theory, and it has some merit.

A few years ago it was discovered that around that same time there was a huge huge volcanic eruption that affected the surrounding areas very badly:++++
Ancient Egypt Cities Leveled by Massive Volcano, Lava Find Suggests

It coincided with plagues in Egypt, and the change of religion in Egypt.

The change of religion focused around the Sun, and such a large volcano, would have been devastating not only to the surrounding areas like Egypt, but also on the quality of the air and perhaps even sunlight. It is supposed to have been responsible for Atlantis, as it collapsed into the sea.

If it had an influence on religion in Egypt, it would not be a wild step to assume it could have influenced religion around that region.

Good opening Post, I see it has raised a lot of interest.

 

[Riverwolf]

I like the theory, and it has some merit.

A few years ago it was discovered that around that same time there was a huge huge volcanic eruption that affected the surrounding areas very badly:++++
Ancient Egypt Cities Leveled by Massive Volcano, Lava Find Suggests

It coincided with plagues in Egypt, and the change of religion in Egypt.

The change of religion focused around the Sun, and such a large volcano, would have been devastating not only to the surrounding areas like Egypt, but also on the quality of the air and perhaps even sunlight. It is supposed to have been responsible for Atlantis, as it collapsed into the sea.

If it had an influence on religion in Egypt, it would not be a wild step to assume it could have influenced religion around that region.

Good opening Post, I see it has raised a lot of interest.

It's hardly compelling at all, because it's HIGHLY unlikely that people would have known that Santorini caused those effects, since it was hundreds of miles from the coast.

 

[Riverwolf]

'I believe'..... You might well believe that if you read a sanitised version of the Bible but the truth is that he witnesses a Hebrew being struck by a policeman, looked over both shoulders to make sure no-one was watching, killed the policeman and buried the evidence. That is pre-meditated murder. Given this account is biased as it comes from the Hebrew side, maybe the actual truth is that the Hebrew was caught stealing something and the policeman reprimanded him for it. Now that sounds far more realistic.

Hardly. Looking at the text, you are sort of correct, but here's what I see: it's a common literary element called foreshadowing.

The Egyptian was mistreating the Hebrew, and so was killed. This is pretty much what would happen on a large scale later in the story.

In addition, look at the text:

11. Now it came to pass in those days that Moses grew up and went out to his brothers and looked at their burdens, and he saw an Egyptian man striking a Hebrew man of his brothers.
12. He turned this way and that way, and he saw that there was no man; so he struck the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.

This could be interpreted to mean that he saw that no one would help the Hebrew.

What war are you talking about? The Hebrews stole jewellery from their employers and neighbours when in positions of trust and then snuck off with in en masses. There was no war. Am I debating with someone who hasn't got the faintest idea what we're talking about? I thought I was the novice.

There was what amounted to a war between Moses and Pharaoh. Moses won, and thus, representing the Hebrews, won the spoils.

Besides...

Exodus 12:36. The Lord gave the people favor in the eyes of the Egyptians, and they lent them, and they emptied out Egypt.