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God/Yahweh/Allah I BELIEVE started as volcanic activity

outhouse

Atheistically
In Freud's essay he suggests maybe the Hebrews were first influenced by Aten in Egypt, a belief in one god only,and then, on leaving Egypt, came across another type of monotheism in Midian....the strict worship of one god via volcanism and the wiping out of all paganism, which just means non-belief in Yahweh. It was the volcanoes that made the OT so violent and unforgiving, the latter traits only coming in after the volanoes were abandoned for safer territory and Yahweh becoming omnipresent and omniscient.....in people's heads. A god inside people's heads is even more effective than one that just blows its trumpet and throws out fire and brimstones. It can be loving and forgiving, just like a father. God being a father figure is not an OT trait but a NT one. He doesn't need to be real to be effective. A child can be fooled into thinking he has a loving father somewhere over there who knows what he's thinking and loves him dearly despite him not existing at all.

Some people seem to think the Hebrews just sprung out of no-where. Well, that would certainly explain the lack of evidence of their existence in Egypt but it certainly would not be a very logical explanation. The most logical explanation is that they were in Egypt but they were not known as Hebrews.

Here is one possibility that is worth further investigation.....

From Habiru to Hebrews: The Roots of the Jewish Tradition > Robert Wolfe

Wolfes work is not followed by mainstream scholarships. hes out on a limb all by himself.


In Freud's essay he suggests maybe the Hebrews were first influenced by Aten in Egypt, a belief in one god only,

we know thats not the case so your whole paragraph is wrong.

ancient hebrews before 1000BC hd worshipped multiple gods as the people came from many different cultures all bringing their own deities. strict monotheism didnt start until roughly 606 BC during the time of second Isaiah and the fall.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
This ancient Zionist map (named here as the first Zionist atlas) clearly reveals the fact the Jews and most likely the ancient Hebrews did not know there was a Gulf of Aqaba. The journey in red goes south a long way down on the right and loops back up towards the Levant. This must be an illustration of their trip down into Saudi. The only other logical explanation for this map is that the Gulf of Aqaba was intentionally left out in order to give the impression the Hebrews did not stray into Arabia. At the time of this map's publishing, not many people would have known to challenge this dubious cartography. Buying time perhaps or simple ignorance. Who knows?

Scroll down page until you find 'The route of the Exodus'...

USM|Osher Map Library

again your following mythology looking for reality.

scholars today do notbelieve that the exodus ever happened as written in biblical accounts. Evidence shows a slow direct migration of people from many different cultures in the levant
 

The Fog Horn

Active Member
Sorry...Wiki again....but this does show you that my volcano idea is not at all unusual....

Biblical Mount Sinai - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Several mentions in there....

Biblical Mount Sinai

Early Old Testament text describes Mount Sinai in terms which some scholars believe may describe the mountain as a volcano, although the word is omitted.

According to some biblical scholars,[who?] Horeb is thought to mean "glowing/heat", which seems to be a reference to the sun, while Sinai may have derived from the name of Sin, the Sumerian deity of the moon,[4][5] and thus Sinai and Horeb would be the mountains of the moon and sun, respectively. Alternatively, "glowing heat" could be a reference to a volcano.

According to the Biblical account of the law-giving, Sinai was enveloped in a cloud,[12] it quaked and was filled with smoke,[13] while lightning-flashes shot forth, and the roar of thunder mingled with the blasts of a trumpet;[12] the account later adds that fire was seen burning at the summit of the mountain.[14] Several scholars have indicated that it seems to suggest that Sinai was a volcano,[15] although there is no mention of ash although not all volcanos generate ash;[16] other scholars have suggested that the description fits a storm,[16] especially as the Song of Deborah seems to allude to rain having occurred at the time, although volcanic activity can cause storms.[17]
In the Biblical account, the fire and clouds are a direct consequence of the arrival of God upon the mountain.

the Mekhilta argues that God had lowered the heavens and spread them over Sinai,[20] and the Pirke De-Rabbi Eliezer argues that a hole was torn in the heavens, and Sinai was torn away from the earth and the summit pushed through the hole. 'The heavens' could be a metaphor for clouds and the 'lake of fire' could be a metaphor for the lava-filled crater.

Josephus only specifies that it was within Arabia Petraea (a Roman Province encompassing modern Jordan, southern modern Syria, the Sinai Peninsula and northwestern Saudi Arabia with its capital in Petra), and the Pauline Epistles are even more vague, specifying only that it was in Arabia, which covers most of the south-western Middle east.

Since Moses is described by the Bible as encountering Jethro, a Kenite who was a Midianite priest, shortly before encountering Sinai, this suggests that Sinai would be somewhere near their territory in Saudi Arabia;[3][15] the Kenites and Midianites appear to have resided east of the Gulf of Aqaba.

The biblical description of a loud trumpet at Sinai[12] fits the natural phenomenon of the sound of a volcano erupting or the loud trumpeting sound caused by wind being funnelled down the Siq[citation needed]; the local Bedouins refer to the sound as the trumpet of God.[citation needed] The dramatic biblical descriptions of devouring fire on the summit

Instead of plasma effects, another possible naturalistic explanation of the biblical devouring fire is that Sinai could have been an erupting volcano; this has been suggested by Charles Beke,[32] Sigmund Freud,[33] and Immanuel Velikovsky, among others. This possibility would exclude all the peaks on the Sinai peninsula and Seir, but would make a number of locations in north western Saudi Arabia reasonable candidates. In 1873, Charles Beke proposed that Sinai was the Jabal al-Nour (meaning mountain of light), a volcanic mountain at the northern end of the Gulf of Aqaba, and which has great significance in Islam for other reasons

Well I never......that is amazing. You lot need to stop drinking the Kool-aid.

Jabal al-Nour....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabal_al-Nour

Are we getting hotter?
 
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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Well I never......that is amazing. You lot need to stop drinking the Kool-aid.

I've never had kool-aid in my life.

As an aside, let's take a look at the ratings for this page:

Trustworthy: 2.0 (3 ratings)
Objective: 3.3 (4 ratings)
Complete: 2.0 (3 ratings)
Well-written: 3.7 (4 ratings)

Take that as you will.
moz-screenshot.png
moz-screenshot-1.png
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Sorry...Wiki again....but this does show you that my volcano idea is not at all unusual....

Biblical Mount Sinai - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Several mentions in there....



Well I never......that is amazing. You lot need to stop drinking the Kool-aid.

Jabal al-Nour....

Jabal al-Nour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are we getting hotter?



again your chasing mythology to create reality.

mnt sinai is a biblical desription created much later the when the deities were created. your way off base again.


you need to prove now that passage pre dates yahweh or elohim. you cant.





you really need to quit going about this backwards
 

The Fog Horn

Active Member
You need to use capital letters and punctuation. If you think I'm way off base then that is your opinion and not a fact. I think the facts speak for themselves and I'm just going to keep posting them and ignoring your inane comments.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You need to use capital letters and punctuation. If you think I'm way off base then that is your opinion and not a fact. I think the facts speak for themselves and I'm just going to keep posting them and ignoring your inane comments.


your embarrassing yourself with a lack of knowledge on the subject.

and I am posting as close to facts as possible.




Do you think the yahweh was worshipped before the bible was written? he was that is a fact.

that means nothing in the bible can be used to prove the creation of yahweh is from a volcano. You also have nothing tying a volcano to the creation of yahweh without huge amounts of imagination, let alone with any certainty.

even if you use the bible it still doesnt prove anything
 

The Fog Horn

Active Member
your embarrassing yourself with a lack of knowledge on the subject.

and I am posting as close to facts as possible.




Do you think the yahweh was worshipped before the bible was written? he was that is a fact.

that means nothing in the bible can be used to prove the creation of yahweh is from a volcano. You also have nothing tying a volcano to the creation of yahweh without huge amounts of imagination, let alone with any certainty.

even if you use the bible it still doesnt prove anything

I wish you'd write your comments better and then they might be easier to comprehend. They are at best illiterate and at worst pointless.

I don't really give a damn what happened prior to the volcano worship, which anyone with a clear head and a small ego would be able to recognise. The point I am making is that the Hebrews collected in Saudi and joined in volcano worship with the Bedoins, who'd probably been worshipping volcanoes for camel's years before. The OT is based on volcano worship, apart from Genesis, which was written retrospectively and at the same time as Exodus to package the religion.

You don't believe anything in the Bible is true. You're not alone in that. Most atheists also assume that very convenient belief. That way they drop the religious rubbish as much as a hot brick can be dropped. They like to be seen as being a 100% unbeliever. To believe in the Bible even a little bit goes against their firmly held beliefs and their egos prevent them from moving forward to the more logical, complex and open minded belief that the Bible must be used in order to establish the truth, even if the truth is in fact that the Bible is a load of rubbish. It offers us the clues we need to piece the jigsaw together. If you have a problem with someone making the effort to work it out using the Bible then maybe you had better do one.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
The point I am making is that the Hebrews collected in Saudi and joined in volcano worship with the Bedoins,

you havnt shown that



The OT is based on volcano worship

No its not



apart from Genesis, which was written retrospectively and at the same time as Exodus to package the religion

NO it wasnt

you dont have a clue when genesis was written

you dont have a clue how or when exodus was written or its possibly historicity




You don't believe anything in the Bible is true.


thats false you have NO CLUE what I believe or know



I study the bible and its historicity and lack of in certain places, but i dont use my imagination to make stuff up that doesnt exist
 

outhouse

Atheistically

The Fog Horn

Active Member
I've never had kool-aid in my life.

As an aside, let's take a look at the ratings for this page:

Trustworthy: 2.0 (3 ratings)
Objective: 3.3 (4 ratings)
Complete: 2.0 (3 ratings)
Well-written: 3.7 (4 ratings)

Take that as you will.
moz-screenshot.png
moz-screenshot-1.png

That means nothing. The most outrageous ideas are sometimes correct. How many people here have dared to say, 'Yes, this looks like a possibility.'? None. How many people who are thinking that would even want to say it sounds like a possibility? Probably none. People like to show support for the ideas that confirm their long held beliefs and not many people have thought this for a long time. Given the page is likely visited mostly be religious people, I would take the ratings with a pinch of salt. I would not put it past evangelical Christians to organise a mob rating effort after seeing this page. Now I've promoted it even more, expect the ratings to tumble further.

Remember the Poseidon Adventure? Pack mentality. Lemmings. Followers.

Jeremiah 4:13 Look! He advances like the clouds, his chariots come like a whirlwind, his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us! We are ruined!
The blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords: who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power eternal. Amen" (1 Timothy 6:16, R.V.). (dwelling in light unapproachable)

"For ask now of the days that are past ... whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is? ... Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live? Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by trials (R.V. margin), by signs, and by wonders ... according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?" (Deuteronomy 4:32-34). (speaking out of the midst of the fire)

Exodus 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain 9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. 12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. 13 there shall not a hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live. 16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, Rev. 4.5 and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. 18 And mount Si'nai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: Deut. 4.11, 12 and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
 
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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
That means nothing. The most outrageous ideas are sometimes correct.

Key word: "sometimes." ;)

How many people here have dared to say, 'Yes, this looks like a possibility.'? None. How many people who are thinking that would even want to say it sounds like a possibility? Probably none. People like to show support for the ideas that confirm their long held beliefs and not many people have thought this for a long time. Given the page is likely visited mostly be religious people, I would take the ratings with a pinch of salt. I would not put it past evangelical Christians to organise a mob rating effort after seeing this page. Now I've promoted it even more, expect the ratings to tumble further.
Not really. Outhouse and I are the only ones still around, and neither of us have rated the page. I can tell you for a fact that neither of us are Christian.

Remember the Poseidon Adventure?
Never seen it.

Pack mentality.
I should hope so. We're naturally social animals, and our natural instincts dictate that we follow the group, because in the Old Old Days, you either followed the group, or you died.

Lemmings.
I do love that game. ^_^

Followers.
I follow myself and my knowledge.

Of course, though people say that simply blindly following the crowd is foolish, it is equally foolish to go against the crowd just for the sake of going against the crowd without having real reason to do so.

Let me give you my own example from this own thread.

Outhouse quoted this:

One of the meanings of HWY in Arabic is connected with falling or causing to fall, leading to an interpretation of Yahweh as a storm god whose name means "He who causes to fall" (meaning rain, lightning, and his enemies) or "He storms".

Guess what the first word that came to my mind at reading this was? Here's a hint:

...wielder of the thunderbolt against (our) enemies.
Shedder of rain, granter of all desires, set open this cloud. Thou art never uncompliant with our (requests).

Oh, and as a side note, take a look at the ratings for the page Outhouse quoted:

Trustworthy: 3.9 (24 ratings)
Objective: 3.4 (30 ratings)
Complete: 4.2 (26 ratings)
Well-written: 4.4 (30 ratings)
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
For Op's exercise

It would be best to start with a known volcano deity or group of volcano deities and look for simularities. sadly when one does this there is nothing there. No ties at all. ZERO

I would love to be able to prove the deity was created for a specific volcano but one has to realize if a sigle tribe chose a volcano you would not have to use imagination to find a clue or a tie, it would be written and well versed and no confusion that said deity originated in that way.


So much study has been done on these hebrew deities and we do not have a biased view of lemmings. We have right side left side middle of the road general views, but no, i repeat no evidence to a volcano as origination of a deity.
 

The Fog Horn

Active Member
One of the meanings of HWY in Arabic is connected with falling or causing to fall, leading to an interpretation of Yahweh as a storm god whose name means "He who causes to fall" (meaning rain, lightning, and his enemies) or "He storms".
Guess what the first word that came to my mind at reading this was? Here's a hint:
...wielder of the thunderbolt against (our) enemies.
Shedder of rain, granter of all desires, set open this cloud. Thou art never uncompliant with our (requests).

All of which can be attributed to a volcano, which causes storms, rain, lightening, clouds, clouds to open up, thunder, etc. It would be interesting to see a complete list of dscriptive terms for Yahweh. The difference between the verses above and the ones below is that the above states he is the shedder of....such and such....not that he IS such and such.

You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. Ezekiel 28:13

God IS a 'holy mount'.

Why is a mountain described as not only holy but 'of god'? We never read of a 'wind of god' or a 'rainfall of god' do we? What firey stones does a storm god make?

for our "God is a consuming fire. Hebrews 12.29

God IS a consuming fire....not God is the shedder or consuming fire. He IS it.

In the greatness of your majesty you threw down those who opposed you. You unleashed your burning anger; it consumed them like stubble. Exodus 15.7
God HAD burning anger. His anger consumed them.

For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. Deuteronomy 4:24

He IS a consuming god.

It's all there in the details.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
All of which can be attributed to a volcano

only with imagination.

yahweh is a warrior god, the ancient hebrews used frightfull and terrible natural things to explain him as to instil fear in their enemies. Thus they used violent natural terms. HAD they actuall used a volcano they would have let you know without having to guess. Instead yahweh is noted as storm, NOT volcano or mountain.




Hebrews 12.29 , Deuteronomy 4:24 ,Hebrews 12.29 , Ezekiel 28:13

All written many centuries after yahwehs creation. Another thing you need to note is that yahweh evolved over the centuries with the people as they changed.





If you dont understand the real history of that time period you really are playing darts in a pitch black room here.
 

The Fog Horn

Active Member
only with imagination.

yahweh is a warrior god, the ancient hebrews used frightfull and terrible natural things to explain him as to instil fear in their enemies. Thus they used violent natural terms. HAD they actuall used a volcano they would have let you know without having to guess. Instead yahweh is noted as storm, NOT volcano or mountain.

Yes, it's necessary to have an imagination to decipher the origins of a metaphoric statement. Black and white thinking will not be helpful in this instance. Maybe an ability to empathise with the Hebrews of the day is what is needed...putting yourself into their shoes. Empathy could be described as imagination but it can often assess situations accurately. Don't you agree?

You state Yahweh is a storm god yet you provide no evidence. I have provided countless verses that suggest very strongly that Yahweh was a volcano god. Please can you post as many verses as possible that prove your point?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You state Yahweh is a storm god yet you provide no evidence.

I posted the etymology of his name backing my statement. And the information about where storm comes from.

You have posted nothing factual


instead you say knowledge should be aquired by throwing darts in a dark room
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Please can you post as many verses as possible that prove your point?

verse prove nothing.

knowing the authors culture and context is priceless, knowing how scripture evolved also priceless.




throwing darts in the dark, not so much
 

The Fog Horn

Active Member
verse prove nothing.

knowing the authors culture and context is priceless, knowing how scripture evolved also priceless.



throwing darts in the dark, not so much

So you have no verses to demonstrate Yahweh was a storm god (as stated) whereas I have hundreds to demostrate he was a volcano god? Forget whether the Bible is good evidence or not. Just post the verses and let everyone compare mine against yours. You've made this claim....now collate all the evidence and post it.
 
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