God

[challupa]

Allah is Muhammad's fantasy. You're free to make it yours as well if you wish however you're not free to force your fantasy on me or others who choose to reject the fantasy. Allah no more created my world than did a fetid dingo kidney.

So if Allah didn't create the world who or what did?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

So if Allah didn't create the world who or what did?

Since the theories of the formation of the solar system are fairly well understood and supported, I'll assume your question refers to the more fundamental question of creation.

In this case, we simply do not know. I know many people don't realize this, but if an answer to a particular question is not known, it's actually okay to admit it. We don't have to make up stories to explain things we do not yet understand just to have an answer.

 

[Judgment]

S-Word: There are many people, even myself, who believe as you believe that God is all that is, but when we break their beliefs down to the individual concepts which have evolved into that concept which is the compilation of all their minor beliefs, we find that they do not have the backup information to verify their belief that God is all that exists. By breaking my belief down I can paint a clearer picture of my God.

All that exists in this physical universal body is created from invisible molecules, which were formed by the gathering together of invisible atoms, which were formed by the gathering together of sub-atomic particles, which are formed from the quantum of all that exists. Man, is the species to have formed within the living universal body, as the most high of all the species that preceded him, over which he has gained dominion, with the capability of comprehending the invisible "I AM’ which had developed in that species which is the image of God. And your body which is created and activated by the divine animating principle(Soul=life-force) which pervades and activates the entire living universal body, began as a single cell which divided into two, each cell occupying different positions in space and therefore in time, as no two objects can occupy the same position in time, the further that an object is away from you, the further back in time do you observe it, some of those stars that you gaze at in the night sky, are billions and billions of light years away from you, and you see them as they are billions and billions of years in your past, they may not even exist in your position in time, even if they exploded a billion years ago, you will never see it, because you will have been dead for billions of years, by the time the light of that explosion reaches the earth upon which human being were formed.

Wave particles or photons which are the quantum of electromagnetic energy, and which are in reality not particles at all, having zero mass and no electric charge, but carrying angular and linear momentum, are believed to be the discrete elementary particles from which all that exists is formed. There is nothing but a swirling, vibrating, dancing, boundless cloud of invisible wave particles which all occupy different positions in space and time, which your created brain perceives as this eternal and ever evolving Cosmos. In reality there is no such thing as sound, a hammer strike a rock and silent vibrating waves travel outward from the impact, those waves enter your ear and strike your eardrum and are then converted to electric pulses that your brain translates to that which you the spirit, who is developing within that human body, perceive as sound. The molecules that make up the scented aroma of a flower have no smell, they are taken into your created nostrils where the molecular combination is analysed, which analysis is sent to the brain as an electric pulse where it is translated as a sweet aromatic scent, take away the eyes and all perception of form, colour and distance cease to exist etc, etc, in other words, without the created senses the tangible and visible universe cannot exist, but the boundless cloud of swirling individual patterns of wave particles which is the eternal evolving mind that is God, remains, shinning in the darkness which comprehends it not.
Romans 1: 18, God’s anger is revealed from heaven against all the sin and evil of those people whose evil ways prevent the truth from being known. God punishes them, because what can be known about God is plain to them, for God made it plain in the creation itself which is the physical representation of the invisible cloud of swirling evolving patterns in the eternal mind that is God. For by contemplating the visible creation, his invisible qualities, both his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, they are perceived in the visible creation itself. So these people have no excuse at all! They know God, who is Omnificent, Omni-potent and Omni-present pervading all that exists, but they do not give him the honour that belongs to him, nor do they thank him. Instead, their thoughts have become complete nonsense, and their empty minds are filled with darkness. They say they are wise, but they are fools; instead of worshipping the immortal God, they worship images made to look like mortal man etc. What a dreadful thing it is to be overtaken by the anger of God.

If your God is all that is - then - we are speaking of the same God - Just using different rationality. You use basic science to explain your beliefs - I can understand why you see this as more clear (even though you still end up with conclusions that science can not prove at this point) - I drift more in to the metaphysical.
I do not hold the holy books with the same reverence that you appear to. I believe they are no more than ancient law books that should be regulated to the dust bins of history.

 

[Judgment]

Beaudreaux: In logical terms (terms used in the study of logic), we call such positions "mutually exclusive". This is a shorthand way of describing two positions that CANNOT both be true because the truth of one excludes the possibility of the truth of the other.

The Jewish conception of Yaweh and the Muslim conception of Allah are exactly such mutually exclusive positions. Jews say that Yaweh is the one and only true God and that there are no others. Muslims say that Allah is the one and true God and that there are no others. Your position says they are both correct and is BY DEFINITION illogical. It is not an insult. It is not a put down. It is a straightforward, emotionless description of your stance. I even went on to say that there are many mystic worldviews where the it is fine to embrace logical contradictions, but I personally can't do it. Do you understand? I can't lay it out much more plainly than this.

In calling my beliefs illogical - you in turn are calling me illogical - my beliefs are me. In your mind one group has to be right or both have to be wrong. Both groups believe their path is the right one - they believe this fully with all their heart and soul. Since I believe that reality is created with our thoughts, focus, imagination and beliefs... Allah is the 'only' God that exists for Muslims... Yahweh is the 'only' God that exists for Jews.

They truly believe that their God's are the only 'One'. You are unable to differentiate between their beliefs and the rest of the worlds. Because they believe such a thing - does not make such a thing a fact for all. It is a truth for them. You do not understand the phrase "The Truth is a combination of Everything". Using your logic you think it means that 'Everything' must be true then. As the 'flaws' disappear within everything - so does true and false - and - the logic of man. Glimpsing God means glimpsing existence in an entirely new way.

Beaudreaux: Perhaps it would help if you would define the difference between "right" and "right for them". When you say that Islam is right "for them", what do you mean? Do you mean that in the grand scheme of things it is not correct, but they THINK it is?

It is correct for them - it is not correct for me. In the grand scheme of things - it matters little.

Beaudreaux: Dude, would you grow up please and stop being so sensitive. Saying your worldview is illogical not a personal attack. It is saying that it violates the rules of logic. Something I hope I have demonstrated at a level you can understand. I even said that I did not mean it as an insult! Look, if I were to say to you:
Some postal carriers have gone nutty and shot people
John is a postal carrier
Therefore, John is going to go nutty and shoot people

You would be well within your rights to say that my argument was illogical. You would not be "belittling" me. You would be pointing out that the conclusion is not necessitated by the premises.

You are the one that has stated my beliefs are illogical, childish, immature and that I should grow up. I believe it is I that am speaking to the adolescent.

Beaudreaux: Well, as you know, that's correct for me. I know you would never try and deny me my right to belief that.

So you know me better than I know myself - You do not find that Illogical ?

Beaudreaux: Wait....are you trying to say I'm not correct? Look, the truth is a combination of everything, including my belief that there is no God and that you're worldview reads like the introduction to a Doug Henning magic special. It's illogical, immature and says "Hey, nobody is wrong! Everything is an illusion. We're all right 'for us'. Whoopie!!"
Thankfully, from your earlier posts I know that you would NEVER say that my view of your position is wrong.

You didn't didn't answer the question - how are you so sure that a God of any kind does not exist ? I would like to see how logical your answer is.

 

[challupa]

Since the theories of the formation of the solar system are fairly well understood and supported, I'll assume your question refers to the more fundamental question of creation.

In this case, we simply do not know. I know many people don't realize this, but if an answer to a particular question is not known, it's actually okay to admit it. We don't have to make up stories to explain things we do not yet understand just to have an answer.

Yes, I am asking the more fundamental question of creation. I also agree that we don't need to fill in the gaps just because we don't know something.

 

[Judgment]

Atotalstranger: I disagree. If you ever figure it out, hit me back.

Your Post "Well, I can call a frog an orange, but if it's green and hops, I'm not putting it my juicer." insinuated that I was changing the name of something. When I clearly explained to you that I was using the word 'everything' to describe God - not changing the name God to 'everything'. It made no sense.

 

[Judgment]

Alla Prima: Allah is Muhammad's fantasy. You're free to make it yours as well if you wish however you're not free to force your fantasy on me or others who choose to reject the fantasy. Allah no more created my world than did a fetid dingo kidney.

He disappeared.... I notice that when Islam is discussed the followers of the faith do not stick around long.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Yes, I am asking the more fundamental question of creation. I also agree that we don't need to fill in the gaps just because we don't know something.

Oops, sorry - I assumed it was a sincere question. Don't know everybody's views yet.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Your Post "Well, I can call a frog an orange, but if it's green and hops, I'm not putting it my juicer." insinuated that I was changing the name of something. When I clearly explained to you that I was using the word 'everything' to describe God - not changing the name God to 'everything'. It made no sense.

Well, I'm not going to continue to argue in circles. We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Alla Prima]

He disappeared.... I notice that when Islam is discussed the followers of the faith do not stick around long.

There's usually some kind of attack of Islamophobia or racism before they disappear.

 

[Alla Prima]

Your Post "Well, I can call a frog an orange, but if it's green and hops, I'm not putting it my juicer." insinuated that I was changing the name of something. When I clearly explained to you that I was using the word 'everything' to describe God - not changing the name God to 'everything'. It made no sense.

Maybe the question is if everything is God then what are the distinguishing attributes of God as opposed to everything. If none then would not God simply dissolve into everything and become... irrelevant as a concept?

 

[Beaudreaux]

In calling my beliefs illogical - you in turn are calling me illogical - my beliefs are me.

I am speaking only about your stated positions on R.F. They violate rules of logic that have been established for hundreds of years. If you want to equate that to you, go right ahead. I do not.

In your mind one group has to be right or both have to be wrong.

In their minds too.

Both groups believe their path is the right one - they believe this fully with all their heart and soul. Since I believe that reality is created with our thoughts, focus, imagination and beliefs... Allah is the 'only' God that exists for Muslims... Yahweh is the 'only' God that exists for Jews.

I believe fully with my heart and soul that your worldview is logically impossible. This reality is created with my thoughts, focus, imagination and belief. It is peculiar to me that you seem to be fighting me on this since I am just as correct as Islam and Judaism according to you.

As the 'flaws' disappear within everything - so does true and false - and - the logic of man.

If the logic of man disappears...how can you be offended that I call your position "illogical"? It seems like you and I are saying the same thing. As you just stated, your position does away with the logic of man in the most fundamental way. How come you can say that without getting upset at yourself but when I say it I have somehow offended you?

It is correct for them - it is not correct for me. In the grand scheme of things - it matters little.

You still have not explained what it means for something to be correct for one person and not correct for another. It calls into question your definition of "correct." It sounds like you are saying "that's their opinion and this is mine." Such talk has nothing to do with universal correctness.

You are the one that has stated my beliefs are illogical, childish, immature and that I should grow up.

Yes I did. I belileve that "fully" with my "heart and soul." It is a "reality" created with my "thoughts, focus, imagination and beliefs." As such, I know that you will not disagree with me. Right?

You didn't didn't answer the question - how are you so sure that a God of any kind does not exist ? I would like to see how logical your answer is.

I do not believe that a god of any kind exists because I am a strict rationalist and see no evidence whatsoever of a divine being. Just as I do not believe that I am constantly followed by a giant flying spaghetti monster or that the center of the earth is filled with vanilla pudding. I belileve this "fully" with my "heart and soul." It is a "reality" created with my "thoughts, focus, imagination and beliefs." As such, I know that you will not disagree with me. Right?

 

[Judgment]

Alla Prima: There's usually some kind of attack of Islamophobia or racism before they disappear.

Yes.. I noticed that. And as soon as the scripture is questioned Islamophobia or racism is charged.

 

[Judgment]

Alla Prima: Maybe the question is if everything is God then what are the distinguishing attributes of God as opposed to everything. If none then would not God simply dissolve into everything and become... irrelevant as a concept?

I'm sure for the people that hold the traditional concept of a God - this would be the case. They need a God that they can understand - in many cases - a God that gives laws and horrific punishments for us to carry out on each other if not obeyed. A God that if disobeyed - will bring full vengeance and nearly wipe out mankind. A God that will torture Unbelievers once they pass on from this place.

Although - Jesus' message was much different - Peace, Love, Forgiveness and Kindness make a lot of sense and I feel worthy of following - but - others added what they wanted when the religion of Christianity was completed well after his passing - and may have added things he would not have.

Any attributes people wish to give to God they can take from themselves. We are part of God - when judgment comes it will come directly from us.

 

[Judgment]

Beaudreaux: I do not believe that a god of any kind exists because I am a strict rationalist and see no evidence whatsoever of a divine being. Just as I do not believe that I am constantly followed by a giant flying spaghetti monster or that the center of the earth is filled with vanilla pudding. I belileve this "fully" with my "heart and soul." It is a "reality" created with my "thoughts, focus, imagination and beliefs." As such, I know that you will not disagree with me. Right?

All of your posts are condescending and childish at this point. Your mind has been made up from the beginning - and nothing will change it. I have given the answers you ask - you do not understand the answers and then ask them again.

You find my views illogical. I find that you believe you know me better than I know myself - Illogical.

I find that you believe without doubt - that there is no God - Illogical. The logical approach would be to be Agnostic - "Who knows, I'll find out after I die"

And yes, if you understood anything I have said - I disagree with you. Take my hand, I help you aboard the Ship of Fools.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Beaudreaux: if you're trying to punish yourself, try self-flagellation instead of this thread - it will be less painful.

 

[Beaudreaux]

And yes, if you understood anything I have said - I disagree with you.

Now I am confused. Didn't you once say to me:

I do not believe that other conceptions of God are wrong - and I would never say such a thing.

How can you now say that my conception of God is wrong? Or is it childish and condescending to ask that you be consistent?

 

[Beaudreaux]

Beaudreaux: if you're trying to punish yourself, try self-flagellation instead of this thread - it will be less painful.

Why would you think I am punishing myself? I am experiencing no pain at all.

BTW, I am only here poining out Judgement''s logical contradictions because he ASKED me to and insinuated that if I did not I was a coward. No one likes to be called a coward. I suppose I could have reported him to the R.F. admins for attacking me personally (which is against R.F. policy), but this guy's worldview is too much fun! To summarize his wisdom in his own words:

• Judgement on logic
  • By saying that my worldview is illogical is to belittle. (Don't call my worldview illogical!)
  • As the 'flaws' disappear within everything - so does true and false - and - the logic of man. (True and false and logic disappear in my worldview)
    
    
• Judgement on telling people they're wrong
  • I do not believe that other conceptions of God are wrong - and I would never say such a thing. (No conception of God is "wrong")
  • And yes, if you understood anything I have said - I disagree with you. (Your conception of God is wrong! wrong! wrong! )
    
    
• Judgement on whether or not there is only one true God
  • There is only ‘one way’ according to many holy books – and unfortunately, once one becomes a follower of such dogma, that dogma becomes part of them, and when they hear something, anything that does not match with that belief system they will only say – That is wrong! My Way is the only Way! – My Truth is the only Truth! – My God is the only God! (don't go around saying that there is only one true God)
    
  • I believe.... God is bigger than most religions realize & there is only one true God. (There is only one true God)
    

These positions are all over the map and he doesn't seem to have a problem with that. Why would he? Consistency is one of the hallmarks of human logic which he says disappears in his worldview. I'm here, at his request, to point out the gaping holes in his worldview for those of us who find human logic of value. Thanks for your concern, but I'm not suffering here at all.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I find that you believe without doubt - that there is no God - Illogical. The logical approach would be to be Agnostic - "Who knows, I'll find out after I die"

This is of course, correct. It is impossible to prove a negative, and just because there is no evidence for something does not prove that it does not exist. But from a practical standpoint, I live my life as though there was no God. I do not believe.

You also did not address my examples. It is also impossible to disprove that an invisible, giant, flying spaghetti monster is constantly following me. It is impossible to disprove that the center of the earth is filled with vanilla pudding. There is no special name for people who disbelieve these propositions, yet somehow there a special name for people who disbelieve the existence of an omnimax deity for which there is no empirical evidence?

 

[challupa]

Oops, sorry - I assumed it was a sincere question. Don't know everybody's views yet.

Hey no problem. It takes time and even when you think you understand where people are coming from they up and surprise you again. That's the beauty of the place though imo.