God

[Alla Prima]

Yes.. I noticed that. And as soon as the scripture is questioned Islamophobia or racism is charged.

Religion can't stand up to scrutiny - particularly Islam. It's not too difficult to show fault in the teachings. These faults cannot be seen as faults by the faithful otherwise the whole gig is up. Ground turns to shaky mud - knees weaken and anger rises.

 

[Alla Prima]

I'm sure for the people that hold the traditional concept of a God - this would be the case. They need a God that they can understand - in many cases - a God that gives laws and horrific punishments for us to carry out on each other if not obeyed. A God that if disobeyed - will bring full vengeance and nearly wipe out mankind. A God that will torture Unbelievers once they pass on from this place.

That's the venegful god of the Jews isn't it?

Although - Jesus' message was much different - Peace, Love, Forgiveness and Kindness make a lot of sense and I feel worthy of following - but - others added what they wanted when the religion of Christianity was completed well after his passing - and may have added things he would not have.

I guess you'd call that Pork. :biglaugh:

Any attributes people wish to give to God they can take from themselves. We are part of God - when judgment comes it will come directly from us.

Amen to that. Karma!

 

[Judgment]

Beaudreaux: Now I am confused. Didn't you once say to me:

Quote:

Me: I do not believe that other conceptions of God are wrong - and I would never say such a thing.

Beaudreaux: How can you now say that my conception of God is wrong? Or is it childish and condescending to ask that you be consistent?

A conception is a thought - others have different thoughts on God - I let others decide and do not say that - My Way is the only Way! My God is the only God! My truth is the only Truth! As many do. So these thoughts others have of God are not Wrong to the believers. That does not mean that I will not challenge the teachings of these Gods.

I never said that your view of no God is wrong - this is what you believe - so - it it true for 'you'. That does not mean that I agree with you - BUT - it is not logical to say that you know 'for sure' that no God exists. It only means that your mind is closed to possibilities.

 

[Judgment]

Beaudreaux: Why would you think I am punishing myself? I am experiencing no pain at all.




BTW, I am only here poining out Judgement''s logical contradictions because he ASKED me to and insinuated that if I did not I was a coward. No one likes to be called a coward. I suppose I could have reported him to the R.F. admins for attacking me personally (which is against R.F. policy), but this guy's worldview is too much fun! To summarize his wisdom in his own words:

• Judgement on logic
  • By saying that my worldview is illogical is to belittle. (Don't call my worldview illogical!)
  • As the 'flaws' disappear within everything - so does true and false - and - the logic of man. (True and false and logic disappear in my worldview)
• Judgement on telling people they're wrong
  • I do not believe that other conceptions of God are wrong - and I would never say such a thing. (No conception of God is "wrong")
  • And yes, if you understood anything I have said - I disagree with you. (Your conception of God is wrong! wrong! wrong! )
  • I believe.... God is bigger than most religions realize & there is only one true God. (There is only one true God)

These positions are all over the map and he doesn't seem to have a problem with that. Why would he? Consistency is one of the hallmarks of human logic which he says disappears in his worldview. I'm here, at his request, to point out the gaping holes in his worldview for those of us who find human logic of value. Thanks for your concern, but I'm not suffering here at all.

__________________

Beaudreaux: Judgement on logic

• By saying that my worldview is illogical is to belittle. (Don't call my worldview illogical!)

Again - By saying that my beliefs are childish, immature, illogical you in turn are calling me these things. My beliefs are who I am.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/75717-god-post1425671.html#post1425671

As the 'flaws' disappear within everything - so does true and false - and - the logic of man. (True and false and logic disappear in my worldview)

God is perfect - there are no flaws. You do not believe in a God - but - in your argument it appears that you think God would 'think' like Man - have the same type of mind - that the true and false and logic of our thoughts would be the same. While we like to put ourselves up on a pedestal - there is much more out there in existence than human beings. We are part of God - But there is much more.

Beaudreaux: Judgement on telling people they're wrong

• I do not believe that other conceptions of God are wrong - and I would never say such a thing. (No conception of God is "wrong")

Answered in last post.

Beaudreaux: And yes, if you understood anything I have said - I disagree with you. (Your conception of God is wrong! wrong! wrong! )

I never said your conception of God was wrong - It is right for you - Only used a word you are fond of - your conclusion is Illogical.

Beaudreaux: Judgement on whether or not there is only one true God

• Me: There is only ‘one way’ according to many holy books – and unfortunately, once one becomes a follower of such dogma, that dogma becomes part of them, and when they hear something, anything that does not match with that belief system they will only say – That is wrong! My Way is the only Way! – My Truth is the only Truth! – My God is the only God! (don't go around saying that there is only one true God)

This is what I believe - If God is Everything then there is nothing outside. I am not denying the existence of any other God - only that they are only 'part' of the God I speak of.

"I believe.... God is bigger than most religions realize & there is only one true God. God is every Atom & Molecule & Quark, God is your PC and the desk it sits on, God is Me & You, God is all of our thoughts, God is every Heaven & Hell... every religion, God is the Trees & Rocks & Oceans, God is the Earth & Solar System, God is the Galaxy & Universe - every Universe and every dream, God is - All That Is. "

 

[Judgment]

Beaudreaux: This is of course, correct. It is impossible to prove a negative, and just because there is no evidence for something does not prove that it does not exist. But from a practical standpoint, I live my life as though there was no God. I do not believe.
You also did not address my examples. It is also impossible to disprove that an invisible, giant, flying spaghetti monster is constantly following me. It is impossible to disprove that the center of the earth is filled with vanilla pudding. There is no special name for people who disbelieve these propositions, yet somehow there a special name for people who disbelieve the existence of an omnimax deity for which there is no empirical evidence?

My point was just to show that your view 'Knowing - for sure - 'God does not exist' is no more logical than those that believe God exists.

 

[Judgment]

Alla Prima: Religion can't stand up to scrutiny - particularly Islam. It's not too difficult to show fault in the teachings. These faults cannot be seen as faults by the faithful otherwise the whole gig is up. Ground turns to shaky mud - knees weaken and anger rises.

They must believe 'Every Word' or face a painful doom. Agree - The faults are easy to see.

 

[Judgment]

Alla Prima: That's the venegful god of the Jews isn't it?

Kind of reminds me of Allah.

 

[Judgment]

Alla Prima: I guess you'd call that Pork. :biglaugh:

Alla Prima: Amen to that. Karma!

Amen!

 

[Alla Prima]

Kind of reminds me of Allah.

Allah is by far the worst of the lot. Not surprising when you consider the mind he came from. It's always amusing (or ironic - or just plain hideous) to hear him described as the 'Beneficent, the Merciful' as he trashes unbelievers.

 

[Beaudreaux]

...So these thoughts others have of God are not Wrong to the believers.

"Right" or "true" in the context of philosophical discourse refers to the universal correctness of a position regardless of people's opinions on the subject. To put things like "for you" or "to the believers" after the word "right" or "true" demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about what truth is. To you, truth and opinion are the same thing. No one is REALLY wrong and no one is REALLY right.

Now don't get insulted, but THIS is why your position has no use for logic. Logic deals in propositions of TRUTH. In logic, we say that if the premises are sound and the logic is correct, then the conclusion is TRUE. Your worldview does not care about that kind of truth and so has no use for logic. Please let me be clear here. I AM NOT INSULTING YOU. I am simply pointing out charateristics of your worldview.

That does not mean that I will not challenge the teachings of these Gods.

On what basis will you make these challenges? You cannot say that the teachings are wrong. The ONLY thing you can say is that you have a low opinion of them. That's it.

it is not logical to say that you know 'for sure' that no God exists. It only means that your mind is closed to possibilities.

You are correct, as I have stated before. It is indeed illogical to assert with certainty that "There is no God". However, it is fine to say that "I do not assert the existence of God." It is more accurate to say that "I do not believe in God" than to say "I believe there is no God.". There's a difference.

 

[Judgment]

Alla Prima: Allah is by far the worst of the lot. Not surprising when you consider the mind he came from. It's always amusing (or ironic - or just plain hideous) to hear him described as the 'Beneficent, the Merciful' as he trashes unbelievers.

Unbelievers face one hell of a ride once they leave this plane of existence. I am glad I have no fear of this God - so - I will dare to ask questions. You would think a God would want his children to ask 'Why?"

 

[Judgment]

Beaudreaux: "Right" or "true" in the context of philosophical discourse refers to the universal correctness of a position regardless of people's opinions on the subject. To put things like "for you" or "to the believers" after the word "right" or "true" demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about what truth is. To you, truth and opinion are the same thing. No one is REALLY wrong and no one is REALLY right.

Now don't get insulted, but THIS is why your position has no use for logic. Logic deals in propositions of TRUTH. In logic, we say that if the premises are sound and the logic is correct, then the conclusion is TRUE. Your worldview does not care about that kind of truth and so has no use for logic. Please let me be clear here. I AM NOT INSULTING YOU. I am simply pointing out charateristics of your worldview.

There is a Universal correctness in many things - like mathematics. But - when speaking of 'right' or 'true' the Universal correctness you speak of - many times - can be found only in the eye of the beholder ... I believe I am right and true with my beliefs concerning God.. Muslims believe their beliefs are right and true... Jews believe their beliefs are right and true... Christians believe their beliefs are right and true, Buddhists believe their beliefs are right and true - you - believe your beliefs are right and true..and so on... There is no Universal Right and True to be found there - only a mixture of ideas.

'Right' often means that people just adhere to traditional attitudes and beliefs.... and Truth' often means conforming to already held ideas.... and 'Opinion' a judgment.

Beaudreaux: On what basis will you make these challenges? You cannot say that the teachings are wrong. The ONLY thing you can say is that you have a low opinion of them. That's it.

I can say that I do not agree with them. I say other conceptions of God are not wrong because the believers hold them as true - and - I may even believe in some of the teachings - But - I have no problem judging (giving an opinion) to some teachings that I find barbaric.

 

[Alla Prima]

Unbelievers face one hell of a ride once they leave this plane of existence. I am glad I have no fear of this God - so - I will dare to ask questions. You would think a God would want his children to ask 'Why?"

I have no fear either. A curious thing considering how others fear so much. Any god who demands to be worshiped on threat of eternal torment is beneath contempt. May their worthless bodies rot in the very places they condemn unbelievers to.

 

[Bishadi]

Unbelievers face one hell of a ride once they leave this plane of existence. I am glad I have no fear of this God

live in what we do.........

if others want to hold a fib, they live in the hell they maintain

- so - I will dare to ask questions. You would think a God would want his children to ask 'Why?"

but that's easy ......... to live!

you've been busy doing the 'good' while i am out golfing......... that's not fair... :faint:

is a first order logical contradiction which means that reasoning cannot be applied to understand it

a sound argument as that same resolve is what most every religion has reduced to in their final conclusion….. at least you up to speed with the whole of humanity to state the obvious but step back and realize that is what ‘we the people’ are doing

we all are contributing for that ‘evolution’

Think of ‘first man’….. speaking………..umm ug….. apple…good….umm ug… looking mighty-fine in them leaves eve…… (the so cal rendition)

this group is one of the best I have seen at such depth…

Some of us choose to refer to this simply as "the universe". If one chooses to refer to the universe as "God", I don't have a particular problem with it, although I prefer clarity of thought and language for the purposes of communication

Exactly!

As why would anyone here ………… even be talking about it

Post 111. "It would not be entirely correct.... because what I speak of would not just be the Universe - but - every Universe... and so much more. "

(oh judge, you could have asked for the clerks support…… you trying to get me fired?)

So now my weeee little opinion….

Existence itself includes……… all mass, all energy and all time.

This includes all gods, all life and all universes; within itself.

God, in the ‘world views’ basically share the same thing: alpha omega, first and last, beginning ending, says ‘be’ it be………. Every phenomenon, each thought, every anything…………. Is all inclusive!

And then to see this motion, this process, the wheels of time as the ‘parts’ we experience.
(slices in time are what dimensions can be thought of, such that ‘now’ has cause from ‘then’ and that ‘spooky action’ can cross time; that is how dimensions are interrelated but they ain’t …….. ‘different universes’)

We are simply observing from perspective within the corporeal (nature) but can ‘experience’ all of existence because the life (energy) of our mass. It is entangled to all other mass/energy throughout time. (physical facts)

This is what tangible knowledge offers; the defining of words for the life (us) to understand. (we are his kids experiencing itself and describing, in an evolution)

Holding down the ‘motion’ of existence is like trying to define a slot in time (a dimension). Which cannot hold the total of existence within its parameters, hence why the term God or the ‘total of existence’ or Allah or or or … as each opinion has varied methods of conveying, is often of the same thing.

Now the fool goes back to thinking that one man’s god is isolated from another man as each are interrelated to all existence by time, mass and energy; otherwise you could never even know them together or a part.

See the weeeeee little signature below;

that ‘name’ is the description of ‘all mass, all energy and all time; the trinity that is ONE…………… it shares the ‘process’ of existence!

All confirms under ‘the name’.

Basically.......... the last 'word' to the argument!

 

[Beaudreaux]

There is no Universal Right and True to be found

Including that statment? It cannot be universally true that there is no universal truth, can it?

'Right' often means that people just adhere to traditional attitudes and beliefs.... and Truth' often means conforming to already held ideas.... and 'Opinion' a judgment.

There is no truth to that statement whatsoever.

I can say that I do not agree with them. I say other conceptions of God are not wrong because the believers hold them as true - and - I may even believe in some of the teachings - But - I have no problem judging (giving an opinion) to some teachings that I find barbaric.

Not true!

 

[Judgment]

Bishadi: (oh judge, you could have asked for the clerks support…… you trying to get me fired?)

So now my weeee little opinion….

Existence itself includes……… all mass, all energy and all time.

This includes all gods, all life and all universes; within itself.

God, in the ‘world views’ basically share the same thing: alpha omega, first and last, beginning ending, says ‘be’ it be………. Every phenomenon, each thought, every anything…………. Is all inclusive!

And then to see this motion, this process, the wheels of time as the ‘parts’ we experience.
(slices in time are what dimensions can be thought of, such that ‘now’ has cause from ‘then’ and that ‘spooky action’ can cross time; that is how dimensions are interrelated but they ain’t …….. ‘different universes’)

We are simply observing from perspective within the corporeal (nature) but can ‘experience’ all of existence because the life (energy) of our mass. It is entangled to all other mass/energy throughout time. (physical facts)

This is what tangible knowledge offers; the defining of words for the life (us) to understand. (we are his kids experiencing itself and describing, in an evolution)

Holding down the ‘motion’ of existence is like trying to define a slot in time (a dimension). Which cannot hold the total of existence within its parameters, hence why the term God or the ‘total of existence’ or Allah or or or … as each opinion has varied methods of conveying, is often of the same thing.

Now the fool goes back to thinking that one man’s god is isolated from another man as each are interrelated to all existence by time, mass and energy; otherwise you could never even know them together or a part.

See the weeeeee little signature below;

that ‘name’ is the description of ‘all mass, all energy and all time; the trinity that is ONE…………… it shares the ‘process’ of existence!

All confirms under ‘the name’.

Basically.......... the last 'word' to the argument!
__________________
.

Science never proves anything beyond a shadow of doubt. If that were the case, it wouldn't be science; it would be math.

Autodidact 7/2008

.

If existence only operates ONE way: then the math is the 'name' to know.

That sounds about the gist of it Brother Bishadi.

 

[Judgment]

Originally Posted by Judgment
There is no Universal Right and True to be found

Beaudreaux: Including that statment? It cannot be universally true that there is no universal truth, can it?

No. That was not a statement within itself - only part of a sentence helping explain the paragraph. Below.

Me: There is a Universal correctness in many things - like mathematics. But - when speaking of 'right' or 'true' the Universal correctness you speak of - many times - can be found only in the eye of the beholder ... I believe I am right and true with my beliefs concerning God.. Muslims believe their beliefs are right and true... Jews believe their beliefs are right and true... Christians believe their beliefs are right and true, Buddhists believe their beliefs are right and true - you - believe your beliefs are right and true..and so on... There is no Universal Right and True to be found there - only a mixture of ideas.

It may not seem as such - But (for the most part) I enjoy debating with you. 'Sometimes' the best debating comes about when the debaters are on completely opposite ends of the spectrum. You may not agree with anything that I say - but - I understand where you are coming from. I believe you have come up with some good questions. Have a good weekend - I'm gone for a few days - BUT - I'll be back to do battle.

 

[Beaudreaux]

It may not seem as such - But (for the most part) I enjoy debating with you. 'Sometimes' the best debating comes about when the debaters are on completely opposite ends of the spectrum. You may not agree with anything that I say - but - I understand where you are coming from. I believe you have come up with some good questions. Have a good weekend - I'm gone for a few days - BUT - I'll be back to do battle.

Enjoy your weekend, Judgement. May it be filled with happiness and free from suffering.
I look forward to your posts when you return. Party on. :disco:

 

[Beaudreaux]

(Commenting on whether his claim that "There is no Universal Right and True to be found" also refers to itself.)No. That was not a statement within itself - only part of a sentence helping explain the paragraph. Below....)

I don't want to misrepresent you, so allow me to be direct. Do you believe that the statement "There is no Universal Right and True to be found" is universally true or not? Either you do or you don't (one of those mutually exclusive situations again).

 

[Alla Prima]

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I don't want to misrepresent you, so allow me to be direct. Do you believe that the statement "There is no Universal Right and True to be found" is universally true or not? Either you do or you don't (one of those mutually exclusive situations again).

Not true.

For instance the first Noble Truth. The truth of suffering. Universally true for all sentient beings.

Another:

All phenomena lack inherent existence. True of all phenomena.

(thought I'd wade into this just for the fun of it)