God

[Judgment]

Caladan: Does that mean that you believe that 'everything' has a mind, a will, a plan?

I believe God has consciousness. The only plan is to learn - and the learning is complete.

 

[Judgment]

Beaudreaux: So...neither of you is TRULY right or wrong. It's just your opinions?

In the end, when discussing God, it is only all of our opinions. We will find out when we pass.

Originally Posted by Judgment

I have denied no path as being a true path, I have denied no God as being a true God,

Beaudreaux: But....didn't you say:

Quote:
Other God's are easy to defeat -Yahweh & Allah... the two that speak as spoiled rotten angry children - I challenge them to a game of reason.For, theirs is the realm of self righteous glory and theirs is the realm of the horrific story.

Yes - and I explained what I meant. And - because I believe these Gods exist - does not mean that I agree with their teachings.

Beaudreaux: But let's put aside your past words for the moment which seem to contradict. Your basic premise is a square circle.
People who believe Allah is the only, one and true God are correct
You, who do not believe Allah is the only, one and true God are also correct.
Logic says that "A" and "Not A" cannot both be true. But you seem to say that they can.

Correct - If the followers of Allah believe he is the one true God- it is true for them.
Correct - If the 'Truth' is a combination of 'Everything' - then both can be true.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Well...it's all I've got. How else can I hope to understand his worldview unless I look at his description of it?

If words cannot describe it, how do you tell others about it?

Does it matter? You are already part of it. The understanding will come soon enough, but for now, all I can do is describe it the best I can. Silence....no words, no thoughts, no perceptions, no definitions. It is in the "stillness of mind" where you will find that understanding. Whatever God is is beyond the comprehension of the human mind. Escape the limitations the mind put on us and you will understand "God". Perhaps we are not all entirely human, which is why it is possible for us to have that understanding. These are just my words on the matter, so they are undoubtedly flawed.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Correct - If the followers of Allah believe he is the one true God- it is true for them.
Correct - If the 'Truth' is a combination of 'Everything' - then both can be true.

Well, I don't know what else there is to say here. Your worldview is illogical. I do not say that as an insult. It is what it is. A keystone of your worldview is a first order logical contradiction which means that reasoning cannot be applied to understand it. I am fully aware that there is a whole world of mysticism out there that claims that logic and reason are not appropriate tools for understanding the universe, but that just isn't my cup of herbal tea.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Does it matter? You are already part of it. The understanding will come soon enough, but for now, all I can do is describe it the best I can. Silence....no words, no thoughts, no perceptions, no definitions. It is in the "stillness of mind" where you will find that understanding. Whatever God is is beyond the comprehension of the human mind. Escape the limitations the mind put on us and you will understand "God". Perhaps we are not all entirely human, which is why it is possible for us to have that understanding. These are just my words on the matter, so they are undoubtedly flawed.

As I have stated to Judgement, this worldview is inherently illogical in that it is based on a first order logical contradiction. You are correct that reason and language cannot be used to understand it since it breaks the rules of reason at the very start. I am off to other threads.

Before I go, I have to comment on your signature:

"Listening not to me but to the LOGOS it is wise to agree that all things are one."
​

The LOGOS has no place in this world view. Perhaps it is time to adjust the signature.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Trying to contain it within the confines of one name or definition is illogical.

 

[Judgment]

Beaudreaux: Well, I don't know what else there is to say here. Your worldview is illogical. I do not say that as an insult. It is what it is. A keystone of your worldview is a first order logical contradiction which means that reasoning cannot be applied to understand it. I am fully aware that there is a whole world of mysticism out there that claims that logic and reason are not appropriate tools for understanding the universe, but that just isn't my cup of herbal tea.
Best of luck to you.

There is nothing Illogical. And if reasoning is truly used there are no true contradictions in this thread. Judging by your questions, you are unable to understand the concept of a God that does not fit in with your already made up conclusions.
I prefer you stay and continue to challenge - but - I have found that people with their minds already decided prefer to belittle and then to run and hide. I'll be here if you are able to gain any courage.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I believe.... God is bigger than most religions realize & there is only one true God. God is every Atom & Molecule & Quark, God is your PC and the desk it sits on, God is Me & You, God is all of our thoughts, God is every Heaven & Hell... every religion, God is the Trees & Rocks & Oceans, God is the Earth & Solar System, God is the Galaxy & Universe - every Universe and every dream, God is - All That Is. Debate anyone?

Some of us choose to refer to this simply as "the universe". If one chooses to refer to the universe as "God", I don't have a particular problem with it, although I prefer clarity of thought and language for the purposes of communication.

 

[Judgment]

Runewolf1973: Trying to contain it within the confines of one name or definition is illogical.

Agree. The perceived lack of logic was within his own thoughts.

 

[Judgment]

Atotalstranger: Some of us choose to refer to this simply as "the universe". If one chooses to refer to the universe as "God", I don't have a particular problem with it, although I prefer clarity of thought and language for the purposes of communication.

Post 111. "It would not be entirely correct.... because what I speak of would not just be the Universe - but - every Universe... and so much more. "

The Clarity of thought and language can be found in my posts after the first post. They must be read if you wish to challenge me - it is impossible to judge my belief system on the strength of one post.

 

[Beaudreaux]

There is nothing Illogical.

From Webster:
il⋅log⋅i⋅cal   /ɪˈlɒdʒ

ɪ

kəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [i-loj-i-kuh

l] Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective not logical; contrary to or disregardful of the rules of logic; unreasoning: an illogical reply.


You said that two people can believe mutually exclusive propositions and both be right. In essence you said:

• "A" is true
• and "not A" is true

If there is a more straightforward and solid definition of illogical, I don't know what it is.

Judging by your questions, you are unable to understand the concept of a God that does not fit in with your already made up conclusions.

Well, judging by your answers, you are not capable of understanding what a logical contradiction is, which is why dialogue between us cannot be fruitful.

I prefer you stay and continue to challenge - but - I have found that people with their minds already decided prefer to belittle...

I am not belittling you. You stated your belief in a logical contradiction and I said that your view was illogical. Lots of mystic viewpoints are illogical and are perfectly willing to say so. You can't have it both ways. You can't assert first order logical contradictions and also claim that you are being logical.

and then to run and hide.

Well....OK, I'll stay and comment. But remember, you asked me to do so after I offered to leave you alone to dive into this illogical mysticism.

I'll be here if you are able to gain any courage.

Not sure what you think I'm afraid of, but here I am!

Your positions are childish. You're like the Zen master who says to the NYC hot dog vendor "Make me one with everything." I think your world view is more about you being mysterious, inclusive and cool than it is about trying to reach the truth. Logical contradictions cannot be reconciled logically. THe only path left if you insist on doing so is mystic navel contemplation. Or you could have the "courage" to say that other conceptions of God that are not pantheistic are wrong.

 

[Runewolf1973]

It is not illogical to believe that everything that exists is energy and all energy is "animate". It is very scientific in fact. It is that force which animates all things is what I consider to be "spirit" or "God". I do not believe there is such thing as the "supernatural". It is all natural and it is all logical. But that's my opinion.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Post 111. "It would not be entirely correct.... because what I speak of would not just be the Universe - but - every Universe... and so much more. "

The Clarity of thought and language can be found in my posts after the first post. They must be read if you wish to challenge me - it is impossible to judge my belief system on the strength of one post.

Although there is no objective evidence of the existence of anything outside our universe, including other universes, your definition of "god" would still simply be an individual label applied to a collection of all things. You're not defining any specific attributes to "god" which would require the need for labeling a separate entity.

If your definition of god is simply "everything", then the name "god" is redundant and unnecessary since you could just call it "everything".

 

[Judgment]

Beaudreaux: You said that two people can believe mutually exclusive propositions and both be right. In essence you said:
"A" is true
and "not A" is true
If there is a more straightforward and solid definition of illogical, I don't know what it is.

Starting with your very first post - you started mentioning contradictions - your path was set and your mind was unwilling to listen further. What would be a logical thing for me to have said ? - Should I have said that Muslims are wrong - My God is the only God! I do not believe that - the God I believe in encompasses all gods and all religions. If Muslims believe their God is the only God - it is 'correct' for 'them'. Not for me - my belief system is different.

Beaudreaux: Well, judging by your answers, you are not capable of understanding what a logical contradiction is, which is why dialogue between us cannot be fruitful.

There is no contradiction. As stated, Muslims, Christians, Jews... so on.. all have their own belief systems that they feel are 'right' - so - for them they are right.

Beaudreaux:I am not belittling you. You stated your belief in a logical contradiction and I said that your view was illogical. Lots of mystic viewpoints are illogical and are perfectly willing to say so. You can't have it both ways. You can't assert first order logical contradictions and also claim that you are being logical.

Illogical for your mind - for your belief system. The only logical contradiction resides in your thoughts.

Beaudreaux:Well....OK, I'll stay and comment. But remember, you asked me to do so after I offered to leave you alone to dive into this illogical mysticism.

Please stay - I'm having fun.

Beaudreaux:Not sure what you think I'm afraid of, but here I am!

Your positions are childish. You're like the Zen master who says to the NYC hot dog vendor "Make me one with everything." I think your world view is more about you being mysterious, inclusive and cool than it is about trying to reach the truth. Logical contradictions cannot be reconciled logically. THe only path left if you insist on doing so is mystic navel contemplation. Or you could have the "courage" to say that other conceptions of God that are not pantheistic are wrong.

I thought you do not belittle ? The true character of a man will always show itself. Everything that I have said is what I believe - I only seek the truth. I do not believe that other conceptions of God are wrong - and I would never say such a thing. Be careful when trying to explain Me to Me - for you are talking about my mind - and I am the best judge of myself.

 

[Judgment]

Atotalstranger: Although there is no objective evidence of the existence of anything outside our universe, including other universes, your definition of "god" would still simply be an individual label applied to a collection of all things. You're not defining any specific attributes to "god" which would require the need for labeling a separate entity.
If your definition of god is simply "everything", then the name "god" is redundant and unnecessary since you could just call it "everything".

Not correct - by saying that God is everything - it gives all attributes that are needed. The name God is redundant and unnecessary to you - not to me. I use the word 'everything' to describe God - not as another name for God.

 

[Beaudreaux]

It is not illogical to believe that everything that exists is energy and all energy is "animate". It is very scientific in fact. It is that force which animates all things is what I consider to be "spirit" or "God". I do not believe there is such thing as the "supernatural". It is all natural and it is all logical. But that's my opinion.

It is illogical to believe that people who believe Allah is the one true God are right and people who believe that Allah is NOT the one true God are also right. It is illogical at the most basic level.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Not correct - by saying that God is everything - it gives all attributes that are needed. The name God is redundant and unnecessary to you - not to me. I use the word 'everything' to describe God - not as another name for God.

Well, I can call a frog an orange, but if it's green and hops, I'm not putting it my juicer.

 

[Beaudreaux]

.
There is no contradiction. As stated, Muslims, Christians, Jews... so on.. all have their own belief systems that they feel are 'right' - so - for them they are right.

Muslims believe Jews are wrong about God. Jews believe They are right about God. These are positions that, according to the rules of logic, CANNOT both be true. It has nothing to do with how my mind entered into it. It has to do with what logic is.

But hey, according to you, I'm right aren't I? My belief that your worldview is illogical, immature and the philosophical equivalent of "can't we all just get along?" is part of the one big truth, so it can't be wrong. Just like all the other views of God that you consider right, you consider mine right too, right?

Please stay - I'm having fun.

Ok...if you want me to, I'm game.

.

I thought you do not belittle ?

I didn't belittle you when I pointed out that your worldview is illogical (which you must consider to be right since everything is true). I belittled you right after you insinuated that I was a coward.

.
I do not believe that other conceptions of God are wrong - and I would never say such a thing.

Sweet! My conception of God is that there isn't one and that your worldview is illogical. I am glad that you do not think I am wrong.

 

[Runewolf1973]

It is illogical to believe that people who believe Allah is the one true God are right and people who believe that Allah is NOT the one true God are also right. It is illogical at the most basic level.

I don't believe in Allah for one. However, I do believe that Allah, like all other so called Gods are like focal points. These give people something to focus their energies on. I do not believe that the actual deities exist, but the energy generated from people praying and believing does exist and has some sort of power. To me, Gods are no different than any energy forms, it is all just energy with intention. All part of this "animate" existence. You can forget that I mentioned the God part, it just confuses things for people. That is why I usually prefer not to call it God. But I do understand those who choose to call it God, and I can accept that just as well. I for one don't believe in or worship any Gods. I worship Existence....ALL of it.

 

[bobhikes]

But what is the point of life?