God's opposition to homosexual behavior. Why?

[Saint Frankenstein]

For thousands of years, nearly all cultures have condemned homosexuality.

Totally wrong. Most have at least allowed it in one form or another. It was only through the spreading of Christianity and Islam and Anglo civil law with its anti-homosexuality codes through colonialism, that homosexuality came to be seen as wrong. In other words, those views were forced on most of the world.

 

[Polymath257]

Please provide your refutation below, so I come to understand where the math was fudged:

Polymath explains the math is wrong, " ... "

Well, the very first 'demonstration' says the first verse can be used to calculate pi to a number of decimal places. But it doesn't. It is off by a factor of 1e17, or a hundred quadrillion.

Not exactly a strong start. Especially since the base 10 system hadn't been invented when it was written. So the factor of a hundred quadrillion would have messed up the representation of pi.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The Bible has a just-so story for your question, regarding that God hides Himself just enough to make people to search for Him, a just response to human sin. I found Him!

Yes, how very convenient that God never manages to show himself. It's almost as if "he's" not even there at all.
Obviously a human being wrote that to fit the available evidence, or lack thereof. That being that nobody has ever seen this God.

I've noticed a pattern, additionally, which is atheists, not believers, find "flaws" in the Bible like "the idiots didn't know Pi," and then we see Pi to enough places to show a superior intelligence far beyond the ANE wrote the Bible. It works beautifully, actually.

I'm pretty sure you're the one who brought up pi and claimed it's accuracy in the Bible.

You've already shown the lengths a person has to go through to get the numbers to turn out the way they want. You've actually demonstrated that very well.

By counter-proof, I mean I'd like to see you deconstruct the proof on that page so I understand why their calculation of Pi is off, because Pi to five or more decimal places is a compelling "coincidence" with odds of 1 in billions!

The only proof on that page is proof that people can manipulate random numbers to mean whatever they want.

Again, why can't God just come out and say what pi is?

 

[Polymath257]

Yes, how very convenient that God never manages to show himself. It's almost as if "he's" not even there at all.
Obviously a human being wrote that to fit the available evidence, or lack thereof. That being that nobody has ever seen this God.


I'm pretty sure you're the one who brought up pi and claimed it's accuracy in the Bible.

You've already shown the lengths a person has to go through to get the numbers to turn out the way they want. You've actually demonstrated that very well.

The only proof on that page is proof that people can manipulate random numbers to mean whatever they want.

Again, why can't God just come out and say what pi is?

Seriously. It is *easy* to take any largish collection of numbers and manipulate them into *anything*.

For example, with the numbers 1,3,5, we get that pi is about 355/113. That would have been a good ratio to use if someone actually wants a good approximation.

But instead, you get a half-baked manipulation of symbols with no real motivation. And the actual text gives a ratio of 3.

 

[Prestor John]

I'm sorry, but it's hard to keep track of who gives what lame reason, and I tend to forget lame reasons.

So, you are ignorant due to what then? Laziness? Your ADHD?

Whatever excuse you come up with to justify ignoring all the answers given to you just makes you look bad.

No one is asking you to agree with them. Just accept that they have answered your question.

Why even ask these question if you ignore people's answers?

 

[Skwim]

So, you are ignorant due to what then? Laziness? Your ADHD?

Whatever excuse you come up with to justify ignoring all the answers given to you just makes you look bad.

No one is asking you to agree with them. Just accept that they have answered your question.

Why even ask these question if you ignore people's answers?

To be sure, if you had said something intelligent I would most likely have remembered it. And I don't doubt that in the past you may have addressed the issue, but the way my mind works I'm quite thankful that it continually cleanses itself of all the lame reasoning it comes across. This isn't to say that I never consider it, and may even reply to it, but after that it's like used toilet paper:

. ​

 

[Polymath257]

*** Moderation Post ***

Please be aware of rule 1:

1. Personal Comments About Members and Staff
Personal attacks and name-calling, whether direct or in the third person, are strictly prohibited on the forums. Critique each other's ideas all you want, but under no circumstances personally attack each other or the staff. Quoting a member's post in a separate/new thread without their permission to challenge or belittle them, or harassing staff members for performing moderation duties, will also be considered a personal attack.

 

[SomeRandom]

Why? If I show you statistics and studies showing pain, trauma, heightened risk for domestic violence and domestic abuse, will you not say it all stems from unrighteous oppression from non-gays?

If the statistics stipulate that the underlying cause is homosexuality specifically, then no I would not. See this is the problem I have with Anti Gay rhetoric. It is so hyper focused on winning or even demonizing gay people (perhaps as a way to assuage some guilt??) that it goes out of its way to fail to consider the actual underlying causes to that which it claims, like you know mitigating factors and even their own actions at times. In other words it considers a nuanced and more realistic approach to "evidence" and let's face it life in general as a literal nuisance. That's not a very strong position, from where I'm standing. If you can't back yourself without resorting to literally ignoring nuanced and underlying factors that can reasonably explain scenarios/phenomenon that "your side" is claiming is happening because of homosexuality or race or religion or whatever, then you're on shaky ground, imo. Because its basic and overtly simplistic at best and intellectually dishonest at worst.
But you know what, I have and still giving you ample opportunity to prove your position to me, so go ahead. Post some credibly accumulated stats with the analysis concluding that all of those are the result of homosexuality specifically.

Can you do this, or does the actual thoroughness of scientific research make this impossible? You tell me.

For thousands of years, nearly all cultures have condemned homosexuality. Could it be that homosexuality is wrong on an evolutionary or other basis?

Uhh, mine didn't. Until Colonial and Christian conquest it was very nonchalant about the existence of the "homosexuality." I mean there were a few that went after them, but since they are usually considered under the protection of fearsome deities, many regional Hindus don't tend to try to harm them, in some regions they are even given holy status. Technically speaking it's illegal, thanks in no small part to the imported Christianity and probably Islam in the region. So yeah, thanks Christianity. Spreading hate and fear, just as Jesus intended I'm sure. (That was sarcasm, in case anyone can't tell.)
Ancient Rome and Greece also didn't have much issue until Christianity popped its head up.
Ancient China didn't really have distinctions between the two (homosexuality and heterosexuality.)
An ancient tribe in New Guinea had a belief that sharing semen between men promoted masculinity. Make of that what you will.
Japan repealed the outlawing of same sex relationships as early as 1880. And even then the law it repealed only appeared AFTER Western imports. The laws remain relatively progressive, if a little....."unbalanced" in Japan compared to much of the Asian world. Laws, mind you, that were usually the direct result of the Abrahamic religious influences. Since they're the only major world religions who protest too much, oh sorry, I mean condemn homosexuality specifically.
Apparently S and N Korea hasn't bothered making it illegal. That I found legitimately surprising. Also even Israel legalized it in the 60s. Good for them.
LGBT rights in Asia - Wikipedia
Also it is a little difficult to truly say that homosexuality was specifically condemned in much of the ancient world (excepting the ones basically made or under the rule of the Abrahamics, hmm there's a pattern here) because the modern definition didn't really exist until.......well the modern era. Not sure how they could condemn a concept they didn't even have. And interpretations of what constituted homosexual behaviour (and indeed homosexuality) differs quite widely among the regions.
Now people always fear the oddities, that's just in built tribalism. A high schooler could tell you that. So the supposed condemnation was probably just people being people and not liking a minority. I mean geez, there's entire centuries long horrible abusive phenomenons that happened specifically because of that mentality. Much of the ancient world openly practiced slavery and a good portion of the world condemned dark skinned people for generations, enslaving them, raping and pillaging them in the name of insert deity here. Are you now going to tell me that because practically everyone did that for thousands of years, having more pigmentation is thus wrong on an evolutionary or other basis?

As comedians to philosophers have noticed, it's FAR easier to have a relationship with someone of the same gender.

A comedian is not a credible source of information. By their very design they purposely contort and use hyperbole to make fun of the world around them. And the "its easy being in a same sex relationship" cliche/gag/joke whatever is based on the stereotype of men being unable to communicate efficiently with the opposite sex, thus unable to understand them (men are from Mars, women from Venus.) This is hyperbole, this does not actually reflect reality. It's merely a humorous take on life.
And which philosophers, pray tell, say that it is far easier to have a relationship with someone of the same sex? I'm curious.
Also until recently they were even unable to get legally married, they face ridicule on a daily basis and contend with anti gay rhetoric comparing them to pedophiles on the regs. Oh yeah, that life sounds so freaking peachy. I'm not sure why anyone would pass that up. Everyone should be gay by now.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The following are "typical interpretations by religious conservatives" as presented by Religioustolerance.org.

Genesis 19 Condemns all same-sex sexual behavior, whether by two men, two women, within a loving committed relationship or a "one-night stand."

Leviticus 18:22 Condemns all same-sex sexual behavior.

Leviticus 20:13 Condemns all same-sex sexual behavior.

Romans 1:26-27 Condemns all homosexual behavior as unnatural.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Sexually active homosexuals will go to Hell, not Heaven, at death. Once truly saved, homosexuals will become heterosexuals.

1 Timothy 1:9-10 Condemns all same-sex sexual behavior.

Jude 1:7 Sexually active homosexuals will go to Hell, not Heaven, at death.
source​

If one accepts the passages cited as those inspired of god, and their interpretation in accordance with conservative Christian understanding, can anyone explain why the Christian god finds homosexuality "detestable" and worthy of "punishment of eternal fire"?

I know I'm asking people here to second guess god and his reasoning, but because so many Christians are keen to speak for him on numerous issues I figure some here would have a good insight into his thinking. So, Just what is it about showing sexual affection toward someone of the same sex that turns off god? Is it just some eeeeew factor, or does it go deeper than this?

.

First you would need to question, by whom did homosexualit come from, Since homosexualit didn't come from God himself.

Second, you have God in his word, clearly stating how he feels about homosexualit.

So you do not have to ask Christians how God feels about homosexualit.

Oh by the way you for got to add the book of Revelation 22:15, If you notice the word
( Whoremongers) this being males prostituting themselves to other males. In other words homosexualit.

 

[SomeRandom]

First you would need to question, by whom did homosexualit come from, Since homosexualit didn't come from God himself.

I thought everything is from God since He created everything? How can something exist if God didn't will or allow it to exist?

So you do not have to ask Christians how God feels about homosexualit.

Well yes we do, actually. And Jewish people and Muslims, because out of all the Holy Books, all the world's religions, you lot appear to be the only ones with a deity with a vendetta against gay people. Which is quite inane for such a fantastical all powerful being, but whatever.

Oh by the way you for got to add the book of Revelation 22:15, If you notice the word
( Whoremongers) this being males prostituting themselves to other males. In other words homosexualit.

So God is okay with lesbians?

 

[Faithofchristian]

I thought everything is from God since He created everything? How can something exist if God didn't will or allow it to exist?


So God is okay with lesbians?

Lesbians is also committing the same sex relationship.
Just because homosexualit came about doesn't mean God allowed homosexualit.

What makes you think that God allowed homosexualit. Where do you get this at?

Let's for say, that if God allowed homosexualit, then why would God condemn homosexualit. If homosexualit came from God.
That does not make any sense at all.

Thats like saying a Homosexual going about condemning homosexualit.
But yet, their a homosexual themselves.

 

[SomeRandom]

Just because homosexualit came about doesn't mean God allowed homosexualit.

But if it exists and has existed in some form for thousands of years now, why doesn't God simply do something? If He truly feels that strongly against same sex relationships, He could probably deal with it in less than a millisecond.

What makes you think that God allowed homosexualit. Where do you get this at?

From Christians constantly telling me that God literally controls everything. Granted I know that's not the only interpretation out there, yeah it's pretty deterministic. But you know, it seems some Christians should focus more on their own sins and helping the homeless than I don't know, going around and (figuratively) stoning gay people. Because they continuously make God seem like a petty insecure jerk. Again, just from their actions. Just saying.

Thats like saying a Homosexual going about condemning homosexualit.
But yet, their a homosexual themselves.

??????

 

[Shadow Wolf]

For thousands of years, nearly all cultures have condemned homosexuality.

That is actually not true, as traditionally sex has just been sex and there was no distinction between homosexuality and heterosexuality. Sparta, Athens, the Romans, Persians, to them it was just sex. In fact, Christmas even comes from Saturnalia, a Roman holiday that involved lots of what we would consider gay sex. Sparta we would, by today's standards, consider extremely ultra super gay with just enough of a pinch of heterosexuality to make more babies.

As comedians to philosophers have noticed, it's FAR easier to have a relationship with someone of the same gender.

And I say they're full of ****. Example: Bill Engval who thinks being gay is just hanging out with his buds, except for the icky male-male sex part of it. Romantic relationships need an element of friendship, but maintaining a romantic relationship is nothing like maintaining a friendship.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Totally wrong. Most have at least allowed it in one form or another. It was only through the spreading of Christianity and Islam and Anglo civil law with its anti-homosexuality codes through colonialism, that homosexuality came to be seen as wrong. In other words, those views were forced on most of the world.

Totally wrong. Most have abhorred homosexuality. Even the Spartans are now understood to have had mentor/mentee relationships and likely not homosexuality. And always, effeminacy and being the passive partner in a homosexual relationship have been abhorred.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Well, the very first 'demonstration' says the first verse can be used to calculate pi to a number of decimal places. But it doesn't. It is off by a factor of 1e17, or a hundred quadrillion.

Not exactly a strong start. Especially since the base 10 system hadn't been invented when it was written. So the factor of a hundred quadrillion would have messed up the representation of pi.

You are skipping the demonstration given on the page and using the original "error" atheists so "carefully" discerned, as well as not understanding that ancient Hebrew and Greek gematria used a Base 10 system... sigh. Both languages use alpha numerals running in base 10!

Stop the (errant) sophistry and address the actual claims given on that page, please.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yes, how very convenient that God never manages to show himself. It's almost as if "he's" not even there at all.
Obviously a human being wrote that to fit the available evidence, or lack thereof. That being that nobody has ever seen this God.


I'm pretty sure you're the one who brought up pi and claimed it's accuracy in the Bible.

You've already shown the lengths a person has to go through to get the numbers to turn out the way they want. You've actually demonstrated that very well.

The only proof on that page is proof that people can manipulate random numbers to mean whatever they want.

Again, why can't God just come out and say what pi is?

I'm not sure what to say. I think the description for the Father as invisible is logical, yet Jesus has revealed God on Earth.

Random numbers were not manipulated on that page, rather, numbers in the text were used in a demonstration of the intelligence who authored the Bible.

I think God has said what Pi is, it is a fundamental axiomatic principle of wonder we see throughout nature. People marvel at the infinity of numbers like Pi and at infinity itself, that they might "grope for God and perhaps find Him" as the Bible says. I know that God frequently interacts with me through a variety of means and agents.

 

[BilliardsBall]

If the statistics stipulate that the underlying cause is homosexuality specifically, then no I would not. See this is the problem I have with Anti Gay rhetoric. It is so hyper focused on winning or even demonizing gay people (perhaps as a way to assuage some guilt??) that it goes out of its way to fail to consider the actual underlying causes to that which it claims, like you know mitigating factors and even their own actions at times. In other words it considers a nuanced and more realistic approach to "evidence" and let's face it life in general as a literal nuisance. That's not a very strong position, from where I'm standing. If you can't back yourself without resorting to literally ignoring nuanced and underlying factors that can reasonably explain scenarios/phenomenon that "your side" is claiming is happening because of homosexuality or race or religion or whatever, then you're on shaky ground, imo. Because its basic and overtly simplistic at best and intellectually dishonest at worst.
But you know what, I have and still giving you ample opportunity to prove your position to me, so go ahead. Post some credibly accumulated stats with the analysis concluding that all of those are the result of homosexuality specifically.

Can you do this, or does the actual thoroughness of scientific research make this impossible? You tell me.


Uhh, mine didn't. Until Colonial and Christian conquest it was very nonchalant about the existence of the "homosexuality." I mean there were a few that went after them, but since they are usually considered under the protection of fearsome deities, many regional Hindus don't tend to try to harm them, in some regions they are even given holy status. Technically speaking it's illegal, thanks in no small part to the imported Christianity and probably Islam in the region. So yeah, thanks Christianity. Spreading hate and fear, just as Jesus intended I'm sure. (That was sarcasm, in case anyone can't tell.)
Ancient Rome and Greece also didn't have much issue until Christianity popped its head up.
Ancient China didn't really have distinctions between the two (homosexuality and heterosexuality.)
An ancient tribe in New Guinea had a belief that sharing semen between men promoted masculinity. Make of that what you will.
Japan repealed the outlawing of same sex relationships as early as 1880. And even then the law it repealed only appeared AFTER Western imports. The laws remain relatively progressive, if a little....."unbalanced" in Japan compared to much of the Asian world. Laws, mind you, that were usually the direct result of the Abrahamic religious influences. Since they're the only major world religions who protest too much, oh sorry, I mean condemn homosexuality specifically.
Apparently S and N Korea hasn't bothered making it illegal. That I found legitimately surprising. Also even Israel legalized it in the 60s. Good for them.
LGBT rights in Asia - Wikipedia
Also it is a little difficult to truly say that homosexuality was specifically condemned in much of the ancient world (excepting the ones basically made or under the rule of the Abrahamics, hmm there's a pattern here) because the modern definition didn't really exist until.......well the modern era. Not sure how they could condemn a concept they didn't even have. And interpretations of what constituted homosexual behaviour (and indeed homosexuality) differs quite widely among the regions.
Now people always fear the oddities, that's just in built tribalism. A high schooler could tell you that. So the supposed condemnation was probably just people being people and not liking a minority. I mean geez, there's entire centuries long horrible abusive phenomenons that happened specifically because of that mentality. Much of the ancient world openly practiced slavery and a good portion of the world condemned dark skinned people for generations, enslaving them, raping and pillaging them in the name of insert deity here. Are you now going to tell me that because practically everyone did that for thousands of years, having more pigmentation is thus wrong on an evolutionary or other basis?


A comedian is not a credible source of information. By their very design they purposely contort and use hyperbole to make fun of the world around them. And the "its easy being in a same sex relationship" cliche/gag/joke whatever is based on the stereotype of men being unable to communicate efficiently with the opposite sex, thus unable to understand them (men are from Mars, women from Venus.) This is hyperbole, this does not actually reflect reality. It's merely a humorous take on life.
And which philosophers, pray tell, say that it is far easier to have a relationship with someone of the same sex? I'm curious.
Also until recently they were even unable to get legally married, they face ridicule on a daily basis and contend with anti gay rhetoric comparing them to pedophiles on the regs. Oh yeah, that life sounds so freaking peachy. I'm not sure why anyone would pass that up. Everyone should be gay by now.

Take a few minutes to Google rates of domestic violence among gay and straight couples. I think there is conclusive evidence there, as for pain and psychic discomfort, there are some psychology studies but Occam's Razor tells me it's not all repression, just like not all persons can claim PTSD due to abuse or blame their parents or society for crimes or discomfort as adults.

I know a lot of gays who are unhappy and who tell me they've "always had a hole missing in their lives," a universal hole which the Christ can fill.

 

[BilliardsBall]

That is actually not true, as traditionally sex has just been sex and there was no distinction between homosexuality and heterosexuality. Sparta, Athens, the Romans, Persians, to them it was just sex. In fact, Christmas even comes from Saturnalia, a Roman holiday that involved lots of what we would consider gay sex. Sparta we would, by today's standards, consider extremely ultra super gay with just enough of a pinch of heterosexuality to make more babies.

And I say they're full of ****. Example: Bill Engval who thinks being gay is just hanging out with his buds, except for the icky male-male sex part of it. Romantic relationships need an element of friendship, but maintaining a romantic relationship is nothing like maintaining a friendship.

No, that's revisionist history, especially since current historians debate whether Sparta and etc. had mentor/mentee relationships or sexual ones--which would further make all the Spartans and etc. bi and not gay. A "pinch" of hetero to make babies to feed mouths and wars is not a sane concept.

 

[Polymath257]

You are skipping the demonstration given on the page and using the original "error" atheists so "carefully" discerned, as well as not understanding that ancient Hebrew and Greek gematria used a Base 10 system... sigh. Both languages use alpha numerals running in base 10!

Stop the (errant) sophistry and address the actual claims given on that page, please.

I did. The first calculation is off by a factor of 100 quadrillion. Do you deny that?

The whole thing about a sequence of 9's is just ludicrous. In no way does the numerology show *anything*, let alone that pi is hidden in the Bible.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Seriously. It is *easy* to take any largish collection of numbers and manipulate them into *anything*.

For example, with the numbers 1,3,5, we get that pi is about 355/113. That would have been a good ratio to use if someone actually wants a good approximation.

But instead, you get a half-baked manipulation of symbols with no real motivation. And the actual text gives a ratio of 3.

Yes, thank you!