Hamas must be eradicated

[muhammad_isa]

not worth discussing..

..from the point of view of whom?
What has been going on in Israel/Palestine for decades, and will likely continue to go on,
affects us all.
Jerusalem is valued by Jews, Muslims and Christians as 'Holy'.

Can you name a nation or two that holds such a view?

It is obvious, that many nations in the UN do not share the US viewpoint on the matter.
Naming nations serves no purpose, other than a cat-fight, imo.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Israel has a duty under the Geneva Conventions. To act with restraint.

Only with other members of the Geneva convention. I'm not under the impression it applies to Hamas terrorists.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It is obvious, that many nations in the UN do not share the US viewpoint on the matter.
Naming nations serves no purpose, other than a cat-fight, imo.

You previously wrote:

One might understand how it is seen by some nations in the world, as a conspiracy to remove power from Palestinians entirely, blaming them for acting like 'animals'.

I asked you to "name a nation or two that holds such a view?" Your response is a slimy evasion at best.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

......

So how do you think Israel should have responded? How do you think this war should be fought?

First of all, when the Hamas (not Palestinian and certainly not real Muslims) attacked on Oct. 7th, with just over 1,000 fighters walking and riding out of their fenced in Gaza strip on mopeds and motorcycles, sent to indiscriminately murder families and random people across the southern portions of Israel, and kidnapping scores of others to be held as human shields. That was an atrocity that must be met with the extermination of Hamas. Nobody refutes that.

But.....
This is your battleground.....

You have Hamas fighters (roughly 1,000 attacking, plus another estimated 30,000+ in Gaza Strip) infiltrated into the 2 million innocent men, women, and children of the Gaza Strip, and particularly in Gaza City (population roughly 600,000 before Oct. 7th); a landscape of houses and small apartment/residential buildings in some of the highest persons per square kilometer zones on planet Earth. Your targets (Hamas only) are likely in small clusters or spread out, like a militia, with one or rarely two young male Hamas in a household. But for each household that contains one Hamas member, you have roughly 5 to 10 homes wherein every member of the family there, has no dealings with Hamas other than being bullied about occasionally, like a town controlled by the mafia. Even in the home with a Hamas, do you consider their wives, children, siblings, parents to all be combatants, i.e. morally viable targets?

So bombing a neighborhood, like the picture above, you've just killed every man/woman/child in 100 homes (each with ~5 innocent people on average = ~500 innocents) in order to kill roughly 35 Hamas supporters (a few of whom might even be combatants). That's a 15:1 ratio of innocents killed to get one bad-guy.
Even if you say "we knew there was a meeting going on there when we bombed it", then "Yay!" you killed 500 innocents to get a solid handful of fighters......maybe......assuming your intel (from innocent Palestinians) was good. Plus, where do you think they were holding the hostages?
Again, Hamas is bad. It's a mafia to the innocent Palestinian people here. And yes, Hamas uses human shields, both Palestinian and non.

But, they are poorly trained and poorly armed revolutionaries fighting a very well-armed and well-trained Israeli military, with 170,000 active soldiers and another 350,000 reservists (most of whom already spent their time as soldiers (i.e. veterans)) being added to that, for roughly 500,000 Israeli soldiers, with absolute air dominance in all regions, artillery and heavy weapons, as well as tanks, and other armored vehicles which the Hamas have none of. (they sent their "elite" strike force in on mopeds and motorized paragliders). While Israel gets whatever jets, missiles, ammunition, and gunships they want from the US.

Frankly, the best, most effective, and yet even remotely moral way for Israel to eradicate Hamas, is with a ground war, slow-"walking" through the Gaza streets with air surveillance, heavy vehicles, and following border-stations. You can cut off aid to all areas you have yet to "pacify", and allow aid to everyone and everything behind you (this would have the added benefit of having the non-combatant-types (civilians) wanting to pass through your check-points that your front lines would order them to. It would be prolonged, although for such a small zone as the Gaza city and Strip, only a few weeks. But your kill ratio of Hamas dead : Israeli dead will still be >10:1, likely >30:1. Yes, missile strikes to their ineffective missile-launch sites is in order. But for Yahweh's sake, DON'T bomb a refugee camp or hospital just because your so-called intel says the baddies are camped out underneath it. Those are exactly the situations where you want to send drones/robots down to the basement AFTER you evacuated the civvies from the overlying structures.
If you kill 15:1 ratios in a 2 million person population, in order to eradicate 35,000 Hamas, then you've just slaughtered half a million innocents (including roughly 250,000 children). Plus, just within Gaza alone, you will have created many hundreds of thousands of new and very zealous Hamas; lowered all future international aid; and bolstered international aid to the newly risen Hamas in many millions of people around the globe.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

First of all, when the Hamas (not Palestinian and certainly not real Muslims) attacked on Oct. 7th, with just over 1,000 fighters walking and riding out of their fenced in Gaza strip on mopeds and motorcycles, sent to indiscriminately murder families and random people across the southern portions of Israel, and kidnapping scores of others to be held as human shields. That was an atrocity that must be met with the extermination of Hamas. Nobody refutes that.

First of all,

1. "Hamas (not Palestinian and certainly not real Muslims)" is a bit curious. What qualifies as "real Muslims" and how are you qualified to make such a determination?
2. "sent to indiscriminately murder families and random" ignores the fact that is was neither indescriminate nor random but, rather, targeted.
3. "Nobody refutes that.' -- Nobody? Seriously?

But, they are poorly trained and poorly armed revolutionaries

• "revolutionaries" ?

 

[Daemon Sophic]

First of all,

1. "Hamas (not Palestinian and certainly not real Muslims)" is a bit curious. What qualifies as "real Muslims" and how are you qualified to make such a determination?
2. "sent to indiscriminately murder families and random" ignores the fact that is was neither indescriminate nor random but, rather, targeted.
3. "Nobody refutes that.' -- Nobody? Seriously?

• "revolutionaries" ?

1. With rare exceptions, Muslim people around the globe denigrate and deride militant groups like Hamas. It's like holding up KKK leaders and saying "See! Here is a fine example of a good Christian."
2. Such propaganda as outdated films showing "Israeli commanders being captured on Oct. 7th", or how many Israeli military camps were razed to the ground, and etc....etc.... have been shown to be Hamas make-believe. These were guys with guns riding into sleeping hamlets/villages and walking through houses just shooting people as they were waking up. Showing up at a concert venue and shooting into the crowd, and grabbing folks. Yes. It took a lot of organizing to get that many people to go into Israel at the same time, with weapons and the willingness to kill. Getting the missiles (notoriously badly aimed) to fire that morning. Around 400 "elites" who rode in first to secure high ground sites. All said, still, nothing like a significant blow to the military strength of Israel. And woefully short of anything useful to the Hamas on a strategic level; plus achieving nothing other than the obvious response from Israel and the US that we now see.
3. OK. There are scum in the world. I'll grant you that.

4. They are a long-term oppressed people, subjected to horrible conditions at the hands of the Israeli government for decades. They believe that they are fighting for freedom and a better life for all people in Gaza. "revolutionary" "terrorist" "tomato" "tomahto" It depends on which side of the fence your local zealot leader was on when you grew up.
Harsh living conditions in Gaza fuel little-to-lose mentality
This story was from 5 years ago. Conditions have worsened since then.
This conflict was a foregone conclusion, given the compression of 2+million people into what is effectively a prison camp in the desert, with poor infrastructure, over decades of time. They truly believe they are fighting for truth, human rights, and goodness.
AGAIN - Oct. 7th 2023 was a VIOLENT ATROCITY. But not completely unprovoked or unexpected, or even surprising. So, "revolutionaries"? Sure. Why not?

 

[libre]

This is a religious dispute between sects of the same
religion, ie, Christianity. I've never run across Christians
thinking that those of other flavors are less human.
Just that they're wrong.

Irish history may liberate you from that apprehension.

The cultural significance of religion in Ireland was significant enough in the twentieth century that it might be more accurately understood as a system of race. There was a lot of sectarian violence that was 'justified' by religious claims, often framed as self-defense.

My uncle was born into a protestant descended family, and his mother gave him the name 'Liam.'

For his entire life, he never once heard a grandparent or member of extended family call him 'Liam', because it was a catholic name. The family accepted him as theirs, but it was always 'How is the lad?' and never 'How is Liam?'.

Liam grew up in northern Ireland and attended a segregated protestant school for boys where he had little serious interaction with Catholics. Last I heard segregated schools are still commonplace near Coleraine.

On a date in his early twenties, Liam took a moment too long to stand for God save the queen at the start of an orchestra performance. His date was troubled by this and asked him if he was a catholic, and he told her truthfully that he wasn't. The outing ended there as his date stormed out.

The are tiny examples when compared to the victims of hatecrimes and terrorism, but may give context to the existing divisions in Ireland.

 

[Revoltingest]

Irish history may liberate you from that apprehension.

The cultural significance of religion in Ireland was significant enough in the twentieth century that it might be more accurately understood as a system of race. There was a lot of sectarian violence that was 'justified' by religious claims, often framed as self-defense.

My uncle was born into a protestant descended family, and his mother gave him the name 'Liam.'

For his entire life, he never once heard a grandparent or member of extended family call him 'Liam', because it was a catholic name. The family accepted him as theirs, but it was always 'How is the lad?' and never 'How is Liam?'.

Liam grew up in northern Ireland and attended a segregated protestant school for boys where he had little serious interaction with Catholics. Last I heard segregated schools are still commonplace near Coleraine.

On a date in his early twenties, Liam took a moment too long to stand for God save the queen at the start of an orchestra performance. His date was troubled by this and asked him if he was a catholic, and he told her truthfully that he wasn't. The outing ended there as his date stormed out.

The are tiny examples when compared to the victims of hatecrimes and terrorism, but may give context to the existing divisions in Ireland

That doesn't appear to rise to the level of
considering the infidel a lesser human.
It's merely tribal hatred.

 

[Little Dragon]

I have not yet seen you protest against the Yemen genocide or the Syrian one, even though the number of civilian casualties in those conflicts are again 50 or 100 times larger.

That is a terrible argument to defend Israeli atrocities with. In fact I strongly oppose those conflicts, aided and abetted as they are by arms supplying nations like the UK and US (In Yemen v Saudi). You are beginning to verge onto the ridiculous.

 

[Little Dragon]

Given the context that they are at war, I believe the opposite is true.

They are not at war, to fight a war, you need an enemy army to engage in combat with. Not defenceless citizens held hostage by terrorists.

Your arguments are awful. They are little more than excuses.

 

[icehorse]

1. With rare exceptions, Muslim people around the globe denigrate and deride militant groups like Hamas. It's like holding up KKK leaders and saying "See! Here is a fine example of a good Christian."

Seems like a lot of Muslims are on Hamas's side, they get billions in weapons, right?

4. They are a long-term oppressed people, subjected to horrible conditions at the hands of the Israeli government for decades

Gazans are oppressed by Hamas, not Israel. Sure, Israel has created a blockade, but so has Egypt. Why are these blockades necessary? Largely to attempt to slow the shipment of weapons into Gaza.

 

[Little Dragon]

That doesn't appear to rise to the level of
considering the infidel a lesser human.
It's merely tribal hatred.

I think you've lost that particular argument. We British and Irish. Know how it went down.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think you've lost that particular argument.

I have dictionaries & connotations my side
showing that Israel treats Muslims as "infidels",
ie, lesser humans with fewer rights.

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

Definition of INFIDEL

one who is not a Christian or who opposes Christianity; an unbeliever with respect to a particular religion; one who acknowledges no religious belief… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

And evidence of many many Jews disparaging Muslims.

Nearly half of Jewish Israelis want to expel Arabs, survey shows

Pew study finds 79% believe Jews should get preferential treatment over Arab citizens; number of those who believe settlements are helpful to Israel's security growing; majority identify as centrist

www.timesofisrael.com

Israel committing crimes of apartheid and persecution - HRW

The Israeli foreign ministry rejects Human Rights Watch's allegation as "preposterous and false".

www.bbc.com

Islam in Israel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Defending the rule of law, enforcing apartheid - the double life of Israel’s judiciary

The Israeli government's plans for judicial reform must be dropped - but that doesn't mean the status quo is acceptable.

www.amnesty.org

 

[Little Dragon]

I have dictionaries & connotations my side.

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

I am referring to the lack of humanity and recognition, the two sides of the troubles had for one another.

 

[icehorse]

That is a terrible argument to defend Israeli atrocities with. In fact I strongly oppose those conflicts, aided and abetted as they are by arms supplying nations like the UK and US. You are beginning to verge onto the ridiculous.

You have made claims based on numbers, as if proportionality was important. If so, then why would you artificially restrict your analysis of proportionality to this conflict, when much. much larger conflicts are happening right next door to Israel?

They are not at war, to fight a war, you need an enemy army to engage in combat. Not defenceless citizens held hostage by terrorists.

War ain't what it used to be, this style of war has become very common in recent decades.

As for defenseless citizens, hmmm. You can find videos of them acting pretty gung-ho when Israeli casualties or captives are paraded thru the streets in Gaza.

 

[Little Dragon]

Gazans are oppressed by Hamas, not Israel.

Wrong, Gaza is an open air prison, created by the Israeli state. It is a ghetto, a Muslim ghetto. They are oppressed by both Hamas and Israel.

 

[Little Dragon]

As for defenseless citizens, hmmm. You can find videos of them acting pretty gung-ho when Israeli casualties or captives are paraded thru the streets in Gaza.

Did they have tanks? Did they have mortar teams? Were they packing assault rifles? Were they flying about in attack helicopters?

 

[Little Dragon]

You have made claims based on numbers, as if proportionality was important.

Proportionality of response. Which is important. Which is all that matters, when assigning culpability. When determining if Israel, has gone too far or not.

 

[Little Dragon]

War ain't what it used to be, this style of war has become very common in recent decades.

What? you mean butchering a civillian population with impunity because they have no means of self defence?

 

[Revoltingest]

I am referring to the lack of humanity and recognition, the two sides of the troubles had for one another.

The claim that Israel treats Muslims worse
than Jews isn't countered by bigotry existing
on both sides.
Israel is a powerful country. "The Jewish State"
imposes brutal apartheid on the Muslim minority.
This certainly smacks of one faith treating another
as the despised "infidel".